RXSF

this is assuming that people want to stay loyal to Lexus. Otherwise, if its just the GS, people will just migrate towards more logical choices like the 5 and E. The problem isn't so much on the ES as it is on the GS. The GS doesn't make sense when it costs more and is "smaller" in size than the ES. While models within a lineup can cannibalize each other, it doesn't hurt to have more models. I mean if BMW can get away with the 3 series GT and 4 series GC, then I think Lexus will survive with the ES and GS together lol

spwolf

how about they kill every sedan except for GS, that will double the GS sales at least :-)

I see next GS being similar to LC-LF concept... not a fleet buyers choice 5 door luxury sedan... but rather more like a half coupe almost.

ES just got new factory, that tells you how important ES is.

Mr. Burns

Lexus/Toyota buyers are traditionally very loyal.

I don't think that proposition is viable for investing in a platform. MB/BMW can do this because they have global sales to prop up niche volume in the US, but Lexus doesn't.

So Lexus would be investing in a dedicated 5GS platform for 2000 sales/mo in the USA. This doesn't make good business sense.

For the GS to make sense volume needs to go up, which means the ES needs to go. Anyone who wants a midsize Lexus sedan needs to buy the GS, otherwise buy an Avalon or risk the Germans. But at least Lexus would be forced to seriously compete for buyers in the 5/E segment, which would mean proper investment into the GS, which means no warmed over platform and 10 year old V6 powertrain in a 2016 car.

The MB E-class has seen 2 redesigns in that time frame.

The 4GS is now well into middle age and still using the same V6 as the 2007 model. I mean sure you want to stagger powertrain release by 1 or 2 years in a new model to maintain reliability, but this is getting ridiculous. Most of us were expecting the 3.5 to be replaced by year 2, or at least the MCE, but now it looks like it won't be happening at all.

And now with the sedan segment dying, there is renewed question as to whether the 4GS will even see a proper replacement 5th generation within a reasonable life cycle of 5 years. Or will it soldier on for 10 years like the LS460. I hope that new global RWD platform in the LC can be downsized for the GS application.

Toyota needs to buckle down and get serious about Lexus, not treat it as some sort of pet project for the CEO. Lexus is a strong brand with a loyal buyer base, and with proper investment in product and marketing it CAN absolutely take on the Germans on the global market.

I think we started to see some of this with Akio's presentation at NAIAS and the LC, but progress seems slow in a market where the competition moves so fast.

situman

Can you imagine Toyota killing off the Camry to hope to boost Avalon and or Corolla sales? You do not kill off your bread and butter! Or kill off the RX so people will move to the GX or even the LX. Different classes of cars for different people. Besides the GS is small inside, especially with that tunnel in the middle of the car that makes the middle seat in the back useless. Well useful to punish in laws or misbehaving other people's kid.

sears1234

Killing ES make no sense, but selling too many ES, RX, and NX really dilute the Lexus image and prestige.
Lexus sales number is in tier one category IMO.

It's better if Lexus can sell more GS and LS.

Hoovey689

iTrader: (16)

And the 5-Series GT, 320i, and X4 don't?!

Not sure if you've experienced the 4th generation RX, but it is a superb 5-seat CUV that is quiet, agile, and also runs on regular 87 octane. Lexus annually sells over 100,000 RX units every year because of its laurels, and it is Lexus's best seller because people know it represents Lexus philosophy.

situman

GS and LS class are for bragging rights. ES, RX and NX keeps the lights on.

SNiiP3R

iTrader: (3)

I personally have 0 problems with Lexus having 2 mid-size sedans. Also, the fact that one is FWD does not bother me at all.

What bothers me is that, how cheap the ES is inside, and how its built on Avalon platform.

Rather than debadging an Avalon and slapping Lexus logo on it, why can't Lexus create an individual platform for the ES line, which RX could probably use as well? ToyoLex has enough $ to make this happen.

UDel

They don't dilute the image and prestige especially when Lexus has always sold Toyota tied vehicles, Lexus was never in Mercedes/BMW's top Tier league, Lexus has always had a ES making up over half of their sedan sales, the Toyota ES/RX make up over half of Lexus total sales, it works and has a big market, why muck that up worrying about diluting a brand when the results would likely be disastrous if they took away the ES and RX for Lexus. Lexus does not sell that many RWD cars like the Germans to come close to justifying getting rid of the ES and RX. Just because they no longer offer a ES does not mean buyers will suddenly buy more GS or LS's, only way that would work if they lowered the price of the GS and LS to where the ES was and still offered what the ES and RX offer.

Mercedes is also selling the CLA now and some other low end models, so does Audi, so will BMW.

RXSF

Because if they did that, Im sure they either have to raise the price of the ES and RX (which they can't) and therefore would have to cheapen the interior/trim/options even more so

spwolf

- Last GS averaged around 30k/year throughout its lifecycle... this one seems to be doing at least 30% better worldwide so far.
- ES does 100k/year, do you want them to cancel Camry so Avalon sells better? Hard to understand.
- E class was horribly outdated for last 3-4 years on the market. Not a good vehicle to pick.
- GS is seriously competing in the segment except for smaller incentives which rule here. This is why I said that GS should not be fleet vehicle that rest of the class is right now (worldwide).
- Warmed up platform? What exactly is warmed up platform? GS current has the best chassis in the segment. What exactly is the problem with being the best? They should do worse?
- We heard rumors of twin turbo V6. But then everyone will moan how expensive GS is and most of the world wont buy it.

spwolf

well first of all, it makes little sense anyway... both RX and ES are better sellers than lesser Toyota friends, so those platforms were made with Lexus in mind first, not Toyota.

Avalon sells about half of ES numbers worldwide and probably almost similar for Highlander, and both vehicles likely dont make half of the profit per vehicle as their Lexus parts... so overall likely 70%-80% of the profits from those "platforms" come from Lexus vehicles.

spwolf

It is once again hard to see this as a serious comment. With Lexus growing so fast and being very profitable for Toyota, which, again, announced record profits in its history (and industry), it is hard to understand why would you think they are not serious? Just look at what they are doing lately - from NX, RC to RX and introduction of LC, what exactly are they doing if not expanding the brand? If they went any faster, we would get only subpar vehicles. By the end of the next year, they will likely have 5 brand new nameplates (RC, NX, LC and likely TX, CTx) in a little bit over 3 years, together with updates and new versions of their main vehicles.

JDR76

Trying to figure out what all this has to do with January sales...

SNiiP3R

iTrader: (3)

It's sort of a tradition now. Every month we gather here to talk about killing of ES. Usually, 90% of the monthly sales discussions end like that.