View Poll Results: What should the next LS go after?
Voters: 158. You may not vote on this poll
Next Lexus LS (2018 model)
#241
Lexus Test Driver
What the LS needs is an F-sport model with extra guts. A turbo V8 with 450 - 475 HP, while the base non F sport model with around 400HP. Take a page from Steve Jobs and at the very end of the unveiling, roll out an F model with a twin turbo V8 with 550 - 600 hp as a "one more thing". Make a statement that Lexus is serious about moving up in the world stage of luxury cars with the performance to back it up. Enough with the optional visual and enhanced handling packages. Just walk up to those damn cheating Germans, look them in the eye and smile.
#242
Pole Position
What the LS needs is an F-sport model with extra guts. A turbo V8 with 450 - 475 HP, while the base non F sport model with around 400HP. Take a page from Steve Jobs and at the very end of the unveiling, roll out an F model with a twin turbo V8 with 550 - 600 hp as a "one more thing". Make a statement that Lexus is serious about moving up in the world stage of luxury cars with the performance to back it up. Enough with the optional visual and enhanced handling packages. Just walk up to those damn cheating Germans, look them in the eye and smile.
Lexus would be no different if they decide to compete there. L badge just cant compete with high end MB let alone the Bentley and RR no matter how much innovation, horsepower, whatever you throw at the buyers for the same money they will still chose FWD based Bentley instead of cutting edge LS-F.
But you have to start somewhere in order to achieve that status in the market right? I think completely LS reskinned brand new model name that doesn't share any body parts except the platform with LS will be a proper first step into that direction. Making an exclusive club inside the Lexus to differentiate regular Lexus customers from ultra Lexus customers is the first baby step. They had that opportunity with LS600h, it could have been something much bigger if they had catered to those people like AAA bank clients but instead they have just dropped the entire car once Toyota have achieved marketing credibility with its Hybrid technology. Same thing will happen with fuel cell tech in next LS, once marketing department achieves to make it the next big thing they will just silently drop it by not investing one bit into it. LS600h did not receive a single update on hybrid powertrain cause Toyota couldn't care less to play in the $150K market and they probably don't know how to act within that circle either.
#243
I'm not at all arguing about value.
I'm arguing about the real-world merits of the vehicle outside of media hype over the initial years.
If a car depreciates rapidly, it is an indication that it isn't very good, whereas new car sales are not always a good indicator of that since buyers are motivated by brand image etc... This is time telling you how good the car actually was. The point is that regardless of the media hype today, it is very possible for Lexus to outdo the W222 on merit, even if it's not necessarily reflected in higher sales.
It has nothing to do with market presence or sales, which I wasn't concerned with. The LS historically has been the #1 best selling flagship luxury sedan in the US. This trend only ended in 2011.
L-finesse as in 2007 LS460 with soft refined surfaces that have now been incorporated into the W222, a big departure from the hard unrefined surfaces that characterized the W221 and every MB thereafter up to the W222.
I'm arguing about the real-world merits of the vehicle outside of media hype over the initial years.
If a car depreciates rapidly, it is an indication that it isn't very good, whereas new car sales are not always a good indicator of that since buyers are motivated by brand image etc... This is time telling you how good the car actually was. The point is that regardless of the media hype today, it is very possible for Lexus to outdo the W222 on merit, even if it's not necessarily reflected in higher sales.
It has nothing to do with market presence or sales, which I wasn't concerned with. The LS historically has been the #1 best selling flagship luxury sedan in the US. This trend only ended in 2011.
L-finesse as in 2007 LS460 with soft refined surfaces that have now been incorporated into the W222, a big departure from the hard unrefined surfaces that characterized the W221 and every MB thereafter up to the W222.
My take on this viewpoint is that the German cars esp the S class and the 7 series carries with it the stigma of "wtf" when trying to get it repaired outside of warranty. In most cases nobody knows how to diagnose it. Which leads to a lower resale value because used car buyers ARE in the market to save money, not spend more when it is time to repair.
#244
Pole Position
Not that anything is wrong with your desire for proper LS-F trim but I don't think it would accomplish much. Performance in cars like S or LS is just a bragging right or another step up from "regular" models. That's why Bentleys and Royces have ridiculous amount of horsepower, not because its useful cause it ain't, but to give people another segment to climb to. Segment where the horsepower just reinforces the badge and the badge is the key selling point in that segment. Mercedes Benz is the only mass production manufacturer that can play in that segment with its AMG offerings for S and CL and soon S Coupe Convertible, that's how tough it is to break into that spotlight. Even their Maybach has failed because badge doesn't carry the weight and shine conservative people who own this segment look for.
Lexus would be no different if they decide to compete there. L badge just cant compete with high end MB let alone the Bentley and RR no matter how much innovation, horsepower, whatever you throw at the buyers for the same money they will still chose FWD based Bentley instead of cutting edge LS-F.
But you have to start somewhere in order to achieve that status in the market right? I think completely LS reskinned brand new model name that doesn't share any body parts except the platform with LS will be a proper first step into that direction. Making an exclusive club inside the Lexus to differentiate regular Lexus customers from ultra Lexus customers is the first baby step. They had that opportunity with LS600h, it could have been something much bigger if they had catered to those people like AAA bank clients but instead they have just dropped the entire car once Toyota have achieved marketing credibility with its Hybrid technology. Same thing will happen with fuel cell tech in next LS, once marketing department achieves to make it the next big thing they will just silently drop it by not investing one bit into it. LS600h did not receive a single update on hybrid powertrain cause Toyota couldn't care less to play in the $150K market and they probably don't know how to act within that circle either.
Lexus would be no different if they decide to compete there. L badge just cant compete with high end MB let alone the Bentley and RR no matter how much innovation, horsepower, whatever you throw at the buyers for the same money they will still chose FWD based Bentley instead of cutting edge LS-F.
But you have to start somewhere in order to achieve that status in the market right? I think completely LS reskinned brand new model name that doesn't share any body parts except the platform with LS will be a proper first step into that direction. Making an exclusive club inside the Lexus to differentiate regular Lexus customers from ultra Lexus customers is the first baby step. They had that opportunity with LS600h, it could have been something much bigger if they had catered to those people like AAA bank clients but instead they have just dropped the entire car once Toyota have achieved marketing credibility with its Hybrid technology. Same thing will happen with fuel cell tech in next LS, once marketing department achieves to make it the next big thing they will just silently drop it by not investing one bit into it. LS600h did not receive a single update on hybrid powertrain cause Toyota couldn't care less to play in the $150K market and they probably don't know how to act within that circle either.
#245
Pole Position
Buyers of flagship cars, most of the time, arent just looking for a nice and good car. Many want that wow factor, while the F model may not sell in numbers, it gets people talking. It is just another high tech nice car. Can I afford such a model? No. But it certainly is nice to have something I can aspire to and be excited about. Anyways, to each their own. Lexus' product decisions seems to go against the grain of what the users of this site wants. I happen to like everything they put out and are doing the last few years, except for the non F sport NX, nose is too long and pointy.
#246
exclusive matchup
iTrader: (4)
Buyers of flagship cars, most of the time, arent just looking for a nice and good car. Many want that wow factor, while the F model may not sell in numbers, it gets people talking. It is just another high tech nice car. Can I afford such a model? No. But it certainly is nice to have something I can aspire to and be excited about. Anyways, to each their own. Lexus' product decisions seems to go against the grain of what the users of this site wants. I happen to like everything they put out and are doing the last few years, except for the non F sport NX, nose is too long and pointy.
I'm not at all arguing about value.
I'm arguing about the real-world merits of the vehicle outside of media hype over the initial years.
If a car depreciates rapidly, it is an indication that it isn't very good, whereas new car sales are not always a good indicator of that since buyers are motivated by brand image etc... This is time telling you how good the car actually was. The point is that regardless of the media hype today, it is very possible for Lexus to outdo the W222 on merit, even if it's not necessarily reflected in higher sales.
It has nothing to do with market presence or sales, which I wasn't concerned with. The LS historically has been the #1 best selling flagship luxury sedan in the US. This trend only ended in 2011.
L-finesse as in 2007 LS460 with soft refined surfaces that have now been incorporated into the W222, a big departure from the hard unrefined surfaces that characterized the W221 and every MB thereafter up to the W222.
I'm arguing about the real-world merits of the vehicle outside of media hype over the initial years.
If a car depreciates rapidly, it is an indication that it isn't very good, whereas new car sales are not always a good indicator of that since buyers are motivated by brand image etc... This is time telling you how good the car actually was. The point is that regardless of the media hype today, it is very possible for Lexus to outdo the W222 on merit, even if it's not necessarily reflected in higher sales.
It has nothing to do with market presence or sales, which I wasn't concerned with. The LS historically has been the #1 best selling flagship luxury sedan in the US. This trend only ended in 2011.
L-finesse as in 2007 LS460 with soft refined surfaces that have now been incorporated into the W222, a big departure from the hard unrefined surfaces that characterized the W221 and every MB thereafter up to the W222.
i would challenge anyone who thinks lexus is not best for its value (so we are on the same page there), but the way i feel about the industry and public perception, a success of a flagship probably has less to do with its reliability over time.
if you greatly discount the market presence and sales of the flagship, then imho you have shifted so much away from the important things that there is nothing to argue about. even according to what you said, lexus lost its crown on flagship sales and that's with them mostly selling swb which is easily 20k cheaper, it's not a good thing
#248
Lexus Champion
First of all, WHEN.THE.F are we going to see the new LS? I have heard this month at the Tokyo Auto Show, but Lexus is being so tight-lipped, I can't even find a rendering.
I'm practically foaming at the mouth in anticipation. I certainly think Lexus has the capability for a class-comptetive/leading LS....just look at the 400 and 430; they were tops in objective comparison tests almost every time. The question is, are they going to actually follow through again? We know Lexus has the engineering beans.
Saying that, the competition is stiff and fiercer than ever. If I had 100k I'd buy an S550, no questions asked, wham bam thank you, ma'am. Agreed 100% that 90% of buyers just drive them for 3 years and trade up, but the remaining 10%? Would I buy a 5 year old LS460? Abso-freaking-lutely! (My 430 was 8 years old when I bought it.). A 5 year old S Class (or, basically one that's out of warranty)? Never, in a million years.
Btw, how are the quality and reliability ratings on the W222 so far? I'm usually up on these things but have been busy. I have heard there have been quite a few bugs. However, the W221 was decently reliable (at least compared to the DISASTER W220). Anyone up on these things know? There is so much tech in the W222 just thinking about what could go wrong makes me nervous.
I'm practically foaming at the mouth in anticipation. I certainly think Lexus has the capability for a class-comptetive/leading LS....just look at the 400 and 430; they were tops in objective comparison tests almost every time. The question is, are they going to actually follow through again? We know Lexus has the engineering beans.
Saying that, the competition is stiff and fiercer than ever. If I had 100k I'd buy an S550, no questions asked, wham bam thank you, ma'am. Agreed 100% that 90% of buyers just drive them for 3 years and trade up, but the remaining 10%? Would I buy a 5 year old LS460? Abso-freaking-lutely! (My 430 was 8 years old when I bought it.). A 5 year old S Class (or, basically one that's out of warranty)? Never, in a million years.
Btw, how are the quality and reliability ratings on the W222 so far? I'm usually up on these things but have been busy. I have heard there have been quite a few bugs. However, the W221 was decently reliable (at least compared to the DISASTER W220). Anyone up on these things know? There is so much tech in the W222 just thinking about what could go wrong makes me nervous.
#249
I'm not at all arguing about value.
I'm arguing about the real-world merits of the vehicle outside of media hype over the initial years.
If a car depreciates rapidly, it is an indication that it isn't very good, whereas new car sales are not always a good indicator of that since buyers are motivated by brand image etc... This is time telling you how good the car actually was. The point is that regardless of the media hype today, it is very possible for Lexus to outdo the W222 on merit, even if it's not necessarily reflected in higher sales.
It has nothing to do with market presence or sales, which I wasn't concerned with. The LS historically has been the #1 best selling flagship luxury sedan in the US. This trend only ended in 2011.
L-finesse as in 2007 LS460 with soft refined surfaces that have now been incorporated into the W222, a big departure from the hard unrefined surfaces that characterized the W221 and every MB thereafter up to the W222.
I'm arguing about the real-world merits of the vehicle outside of media hype over the initial years.
If a car depreciates rapidly, it is an indication that it isn't very good, whereas new car sales are not always a good indicator of that since buyers are motivated by brand image etc... This is time telling you how good the car actually was. The point is that regardless of the media hype today, it is very possible for Lexus to outdo the W222 on merit, even if it's not necessarily reflected in higher sales.
It has nothing to do with market presence or sales, which I wasn't concerned with. The LS historically has been the #1 best selling flagship luxury sedan in the US. This trend only ended in 2011.
L-finesse as in 2007 LS460 with soft refined surfaces that have now been incorporated into the W222, a big departure from the hard unrefined surfaces that characterized the W221 and every MB thereafter up to the W222.
Mercedes and BMW are notorious for this because of the target audience, but it happens to most manufacturers and their high-end models. Only a small portion of people can afford a $100,000+ car. Once those people decide they are ready for the next model, the target audience is one with much lower income, even with it having a warranty. Once the warranty is gone and the less wealthy audience gets rid of the car, only a few people are going to want the car. Each time the price drops quite a bit.
The same thing happens with the LS460, by your logic this must be an indication that the LS460 isn't very good.
Last edited by Superes350; 10-10-15 at 01:11 PM.
#250
exclusive matchup
iTrader: (4)
Btw, how are the quality and reliability ratings on the W222 so far? I'm usually up on these things but have been busy. I have heard there have been quite a few bugs. However, the W221 was decently reliable (at least compared to the DISASTER W220). Anyone up on these things know? There is so much tech in the W222 just thinking about what could go wrong makes me nervous.
the s63 seems to have some shut down issues
#251
Lexus Champion
Man oh man, what I'd do for a 1991 (last MY) 560SEL. The W140s used to be my favs (and look the best), but those cars were just overcomplicated. I see so many W126s here in car-capital-of-the-world LA and hardly see any W140s. . Makes me sad.
#252
#253
As I said, the LS460 has depreciated quite a bit. By your logic, this means that the LS460 is not reliable and is not a good car. Sound right to you? Expensive cars depreciate a lot for the exact reason I stated. Even low-production cars like Lamborghinis and Ferraris suffer this fate.
#254
Lexus Champion
Depreciation of a car is not an automatic indication that it isn't very good, especially with a vehicle that is targeted toward the wealthy who will be switching cars every 1-3 years.
Mercedes and BMW are notorious for this because of the target audience, but it happens to most manufacturers and their high-end models. Only a small portion of people can afford a $100,000+ car. Once those people decide they are ready for the next model, the target audience is one with much lower income, even with it having a warranty. Once the warranty is gone and the less wealthy audience gets rid of the car, only a few people are going to want the car. Each time the price drops quite a bit.
The same thing happens with the LS460, by your logic this must be an indication that the LS460 isn't very good.
Mercedes and BMW are notorious for this because of the target audience, but it happens to most manufacturers and their high-end models. Only a small portion of people can afford a $100,000+ car. Once those people decide they are ready for the next model, the target audience is one with much lower income, even with it having a warranty. Once the warranty is gone and the less wealthy audience gets rid of the car, only a few people are going to want the car. Each time the price drops quite a bit.
The same thing happens with the LS460, by your logic this must be an indication that the LS460 isn't very good.
The S550 and 7 series depreciate much faster than the LS460. That's the point here, not the simple fact of depreciation.