Volkswagen diesel scandal
09-09-16, 04:01 PM
#481
If they're going to charge anybody, it should be Ferdinand Piech. He instilled this culture of fear and intimidation, ie you get results or you start packing up your desk. Bob Lutz really hits the nail on the head about leadership with this op-ed he wrote for Road and Track.
http://www.roadandtrack.com/car-cult...diesel-fiasco/
Ferdinand Piëch, the immensely powerful former chief of Volkswagen's supervisory board, is more than likely the root cause of the VW diesel-emissions scandal. Whether he specifically asked for, tacitly approved, or was even aware of the company's use of software to deliberately fudge EPA emissions testing is immaterial.
I sat next to him at an industry dinner in the Nineties, just after the fourth-generation Golf had debuted at the Frankfurt show. I told him, "I'd like to congratulate you on the new Golf. First of all, it's a nice-looking car, but God, those body fits!"
"Ah, you like those?"
"Yeah. I wish we could get close to that at Chrysler."
"I'll give you the recipe. I called all the body engineers, stamping people, manufacturing, and executives into my conference room. And I said, 'I am tired of all these lousy body fits. You have six weeks to achieve world-class body fits. I have all your names. If we do not have good body fits in six weeks, I will replace all of you. Thank you for your time today.' "
"That's how you did it?"
"Yes. And it worked."
IT'S WHAT I CALL A REIGN OF TERROR AND A CULTURE WHERE PERFORMANCE WAS DRIVEN BY FEAR AND INTIMIDATION.
That's the way he ran everything. It's what I call a reign of terror and a culture where performance was driven by fear and intimidation. He just says, "You will sell diesels in the U.S., and you will not fail. Do it, or I'll find somebody who will." The guy was absolutely brutal.
I imagine that at some point, the VW engineering team said to Piëch, "We don't know how to pass the emissions test with the hardware we have." The reply, in that culture, most likely was, "You will pass! I demand it! Or I'll find someone who can do it!"
In these situations, your choice was immediate dismissal or find a way to pass the test and pay the consequences later. Human nature being what it is—if it's lose your job today for sure or lose your job maybe a year from now, we always pick maybe a year from now.
That management style gets short-term results, but it's a culture that's extremely dangerous. Look at dictators. Dictators invariably wind up destroying the very countries they thought their omniscience and omnipotence would make great. It's fast and it's efficient, but at huge risk.
This diesel fiasco is immeasurable in terms of damages—so much worse than Toyota acceleration, Ford Firestone tires, or GM ignition switches. In all those cases, tragically, people died, but it wasn't premeditated. You settle with the victims' families, pay the fine, put in the new parts, and for $1.5 billion, it can all be contained. But this Volkswagen mess is like the disaster that keeps on giving.
To make the cars legal in the U.S., VW will need to program them with the software that passes the test, in which case, performance is down and fuel consumption is up, and every VW TDI owner is part of a class-action suit against Volkswagen. To retrofit a urea system is basically a nonstarter, as it would require far too much change.
There is no easy fix. But you can probably rely on the German government to do what is necessary to pull Volkswagen out of this crisis.
In terms of marketing cars in the U.S., Volkswagen will need a radically new array of products that are much closer to mainstream American tastes than what it has. The whole Clean Diesel campaign, as the foundation of the VW brand, cannot be resurrected. It's history.
SUBMIT QUESTIONS TO BOB AT: http://rams.roadandtrack.com/askbob@roadandtrack.comBob Lutz has been The Man at several car companies, so your problems are cake. Bring 'em on.
http://www.roadandtrack.com/car-cult...diesel-fiasco/
Ferdinand Piëch, the immensely powerful former chief of Volkswagen's supervisory board, is more than likely the root cause of the VW diesel-emissions scandal. Whether he specifically asked for, tacitly approved, or was even aware of the company's use of software to deliberately fudge EPA emissions testing is immaterial.
I sat next to him at an industry dinner in the Nineties, just after the fourth-generation Golf had debuted at the Frankfurt show. I told him, "I'd like to congratulate you on the new Golf. First of all, it's a nice-looking car, but God, those body fits!"
"Ah, you like those?"
"Yeah. I wish we could get close to that at Chrysler."
"I'll give you the recipe. I called all the body engineers, stamping people, manufacturing, and executives into my conference room. And I said, 'I am tired of all these lousy body fits. You have six weeks to achieve world-class body fits. I have all your names. If we do not have good body fits in six weeks, I will replace all of you. Thank you for your time today.' "
"That's how you did it?"
"Yes. And it worked."
IT'S WHAT I CALL A REIGN OF TERROR AND A CULTURE WHERE PERFORMANCE WAS DRIVEN BY FEAR AND INTIMIDATION.
That's the way he ran everything. It's what I call a reign of terror and a culture where performance was driven by fear and intimidation. He just says, "You will sell diesels in the U.S., and you will not fail. Do it, or I'll find somebody who will." The guy was absolutely brutal.
I imagine that at some point, the VW engineering team said to Piëch, "We don't know how to pass the emissions test with the hardware we have." The reply, in that culture, most likely was, "You will pass! I demand it! Or I'll find someone who can do it!"
In these situations, your choice was immediate dismissal or find a way to pass the test and pay the consequences later. Human nature being what it is—if it's lose your job today for sure or lose your job maybe a year from now, we always pick maybe a year from now.
That management style gets short-term results, but it's a culture that's extremely dangerous. Look at dictators. Dictators invariably wind up destroying the very countries they thought their omniscience and omnipotence would make great. It's fast and it's efficient, but at huge risk.
This diesel fiasco is immeasurable in terms of damages—so much worse than Toyota acceleration, Ford Firestone tires, or GM ignition switches. In all those cases, tragically, people died, but it wasn't premeditated. You settle with the victims' families, pay the fine, put in the new parts, and for $1.5 billion, it can all be contained. But this Volkswagen mess is like the disaster that keeps on giving.
To make the cars legal in the U.S., VW will need to program them with the software that passes the test, in which case, performance is down and fuel consumption is up, and every VW TDI owner is part of a class-action suit against Volkswagen. To retrofit a urea system is basically a nonstarter, as it would require far too much change.
There is no easy fix. But you can probably rely on the German government to do what is necessary to pull Volkswagen out of this crisis.
In terms of marketing cars in the U.S., Volkswagen will need a radically new array of products that are much closer to mainstream American tastes than what it has. The whole Clean Diesel campaign, as the foundation of the VW brand, cannot be resurrected. It's history.
SUBMIT QUESTIONS TO BOB AT: http://rams.roadandtrack.com/askbob@roadandtrack.comBob Lutz has been The Man at several car companies, so your problems are cake. Bring 'em on.
09-12-16, 08:29 AM
#482
On 10-29-15
That is where we differ, slightly. The VW senior management ordered a special team to "do what it takes - no questions asked" and get the engine approved by the EPA. Did this team tell the Senior management of how they achieved it? No. Nor did they want to hear it. Plausible deniability. That is why. The rest of the engineering team were either busy on other projects or did not even bother to worry and carried on playing solitaire on their PC.
That is where we differ, slightly. The VW senior management ordered a special team to "do what it takes - no questions asked" and get the engine approved by the EPA. Did this team tell the Senior management of how they achieved it? No. Nor did they want to hear it. Plausible deniability. That is why. The rest of the engineering team were either busy on other projects or did not even bother to worry and carried on playing solitaire on their PC.
this is not how real life big corporation works, it is not a hollywood movie... Single vehicle is designed by over a thousand of engineers... these engines have been implemented in most of VW vehicles.
There is no such thing as "no questions asked" policy, it is not a spy movie.
By the end of the year, there will be at least a hundred of people either fired or suspended by VW in regards to this issue... their top R&D guys already are and their CEO has been fired basically.
This is not just about saving face, police are going to prosecute responsible because of at least $30 billion in damages, without even talking about loss of share value. People are going to jail at the end of this.
There is no such thing as "no questions asked" policy, it is not a spy movie.
By the end of the year, there will be at least a hundred of people either fired or suspended by VW in regards to this issue... their top R&D guys already are and their CEO has been fired basically.
This is not just about saving face, police are going to prosecute responsible because of at least $30 billion in damages, without even talking about loss of share value. People are going to jail at the end of this.
Plausible deniability? Really? Are you serious? What do you think this is -- Mission Impossible? Tom Cruise as CEO of VW Group?
"Do what it takes -- no questions asked" does not absolve senior management of responsibility. Any senior manager who believes this is in for a really, really rude awakening into the real world. Any senior manager who still believes this does not deserve to be making a 6-figure salary, much less a 7- or 8-figure salary.
What seems to be forgotten is that Bosch, not VW, wrote the software; and Bosch says they told VW, including senior management. Bosch also cautioned that to use the software, with the embedded cheating device, is unethical and possibly illegal.
"Do what it takes -- no questions asked" does not absolve senior management of responsibility. Any senior manager who believes this is in for a really, really rude awakening into the real world. Any senior manager who still believes this does not deserve to be making a 6-figure salary, much less a 7- or 8-figure salary.
What seems to be forgotten is that Bosch, not VW, wrote the software; and Bosch says they told VW, including senior management. Bosch also cautioned that to use the software, with the embedded cheating device, is unethical and possibly illegal.
I sat next to him at an industry dinner in the Nineties, just after the fourth-generation Golf had debuted at the Frankfurt show. I told him, "I'd like to congratulate you on the new Golf. First of all, it's a nice-looking car, but God, those body fits!"
"Ah, you like those?"
"Yeah. I wish we could get close to that at Chrysler."
"I'll give you the recipe. I called all the body engineers, stamping people, manufacturing, and executives into my conference room. And I said, 'I am tired of all these lousy body fits. You have six weeks to achieve world-class body fits. I have all your names. If we do not have good body fits in six weeks, I will replace all of you. Thank you for your time today.' "
"That's how you did it?"
"Yes. And it worked."
IT'S WHAT I CALL A REIGN OF TERROR AND A CULTURE WHERE PERFORMANCE WAS DRIVEN BY FEAR AND INTIMIDATION.
That's the way he ran everything. It's what I call a reign of terror and a culture where performance was driven by fear and intimidation. He just says, "You will sell diesels in the U.S., and you will not fail. Do it, or I'll find somebody who will." The guy was absolutely brutal.
I imagine that at some point, the VW engineering team said to Piëch, "We don't know how to pass the emissions test with the hardware we have." The reply, in that culture, most likely was, "You will pass! I demand it! Or I'll find someone who can do it!"
In these situations, your choice was immediate dismissal or find a way to pass the test and pay the consequences later. Human nature being what it is—if it's lose your job today for sure or lose your job maybe a year from now, we always pick maybe a year from now.
SUBMIT QUESTIONS TO BOB AT: http://rams.roadandtrack.com/askbob@roadandtrack.com
"Ah, you like those?"
"Yeah. I wish we could get close to that at Chrysler."
"I'll give you the recipe. I called all the body engineers, stamping people, manufacturing, and executives into my conference room. And I said, 'I am tired of all these lousy body fits. You have six weeks to achieve world-class body fits. I have all your names. If we do not have good body fits in six weeks, I will replace all of you. Thank you for your time today.' "
"That's how you did it?"
"Yes. And it worked."
IT'S WHAT I CALL A REIGN OF TERROR AND A CULTURE WHERE PERFORMANCE WAS DRIVEN BY FEAR AND INTIMIDATION.
That's the way he ran everything. It's what I call a reign of terror and a culture where performance was driven by fear and intimidation. He just says, "You will sell diesels in the U.S., and you will not fail. Do it, or I'll find somebody who will." The guy was absolutely brutal.
I imagine that at some point, the VW engineering team said to Piëch, "We don't know how to pass the emissions test with the hardware we have." The reply, in that culture, most likely was, "You will pass! I demand it! Or I'll find someone who can do it!"
In these situations, your choice was immediate dismissal or find a way to pass the test and pay the consequences later. Human nature being what it is—if it's lose your job today for sure or lose your job maybe a year from now, we always pick maybe a year from now.
SUBMIT QUESTIONS TO BOB AT: http://rams.roadandtrack.com/askbob@roadandtrack.com
Last edited by chikoo; 09-12-16 at 09:43 AM.
10-14-16, 08:21 AM
#483
unintended result of the VW scandal, bigger engines? That has got to suck to have to abandon R&D and redo everything
http://www.reuters.com/article/us-au...-idUSKBN12E11K
http://www.reuters.com/article/us-au...-idUSKBN12E11K
Exclusive: Carmakers forced back to bigger engines in new emissions era
By Laurence Frost and Agnieszka Flak PARIS
Tougher European car emissions tests being introduced in the wake of the Volkswagen (VOWG_p.DE) scandal are about to bring surprising consequences: bigger engines.
Carmakers that have spent a decade shrinking engine capacities to meet emissions goals are now being forced into a costly U-turn, industry sources said, as more realistic on-the-road testing exposes deep flaws in their smallest motors.
Renault (RENA.PA), General Motors (GM.N) and VW are preparing to enlarge or scrap some of their best-selling small car engines over the next three years, the people said. Other manufacturers are expected to follow, with both diesels and gasolines affected.
The reversal makes it even harder to meet carbon dioxide (CO2) targets and will challenge development budgets already stretched by a rush into electric cars and hybrids.
"The techniques we've used to reduce engine capacities will no longer allow us to meet emissions standards," said Alain Raposo, head of powertrain at the Renault-Nissan alliance.
"We're reaching the limits of downsizing," he said at the Paris auto show, which ends on Saturday. Renault, VW and GM's Opel all declined to comment on specific engine plans.
For years, carmakers kept pace with European Union CO2 goals by shrinking engine capacities, while adding turbo chargers to make up lost power. Three-cylinder motors below one liter have become common in cars up to VW Golf-sized compacts; some Fiat (FCHA.MI) models run on twin-cylinders.
These mini-motors sailed through official lab tests conducted - until now - on rollers at unrealistically moderate temperatures and speeds. Carmakers, regulators and green groups knew that real-world CO2 and nitrogen oxide (NOx) emissions were much higher, but the discrepancy remained unresolved.
All that is about to change. Starting next year, new models will be subjected to realistic on-the-road testing for NOx, with all cars required to comply by 2019. Fuel consumption and CO2 will follow two years later under a new global test standard.
Independent testing in the wake of VW's exposure last year as a U.S. diesel emissions cheat has shed more light on the scale of the problem facing automakers.
Carmakers' smallest European engines, when driven at higher loads than current tests allow, far exceed legal emissions levels. Heat from the souped-up turbos generates diesel NOx up to 15 times over the limit; gasoline equivalents lose fuel-efficiency and spew fine particles and carbon monoxide.
"They might be doing OK in the current European test cycle, but in the real world they are not performing," said Pavan Potluri, an analyst with influential forecaster IHS Automotive.
"So there's actually a bit of 'upsizing' going on, particularly in diesel."
IN RETREAT
Carmakers have kept understandably quiet about the scale of the problem or how they plan to address it. But industry sources shared details of a retreat already underway.
GM will not replace its current 1.2-litre diesel when the engines are updated on a new architecture arriving in 2019, people with knowledge of the matter said. The smallest engine in the range will be 25-30 percent bigger.
VW is replacing its 1.4 liter three-cylinder diesel with a four-cylinder 1.6 for cars like the Polo, they said, while Renault is planning a near-10 percent enlargement to its 1.6 liter R9M diesel, which had replaced a 1.9-litre model in 2011.
In real-driving conditions, the French carmaker's 0.9-litre gasoline H4Bt injects excess fuel to prevent overheating, resulting in high emissions of unburned hydrocarbons, fine particles and carbon monoxide.
Cleaning that up with exhaust technology would be too expensive, sources say, so the three-cylinder will be dropped for a larger successor developing more torque at lower regimes to stay cool.
The turnaround on size is a European phenomenon, coinciding with diesel's sharp decline in smaller cars. Larger engines prevalent in North America, China and emerging markets still have room to improve real emissions by shrinking.
INEVITABLE RECKONING
Fiat, Renault and Opel have the worst real NOx emissions among the newest "Euro 6" diesels, according to test data from several countries. They now "face the biggest burden" of compliance costs, brokerage Evercore ISI warned last month.
Such reckonings are the inevitable result of on-the-road testing, said Thomas Weber, head of research and development at Mercedes DAIGn_.DE, which has nothing below four cylinders.
"It becomes apparent that a small engine is not an advantage," Weber told Reuters. "That's why we didn't jump on the three-cylinder engine trend."
The tougher tests may kill diesel engines smaller than 1.5 liters and gasolines below about 1.2, analysts predict. That in turn increases the challenge of meeting CO2 goals, adding urgency to the scramble for electric cars and hybrids.
VW has been far more vocal about ambitious plans announced in June to sell 2-3 million electric cars annually by 2025 - about a quarter of its current vehicle production.
"You can't downsize beyond a certain point, so the focus is shifting to a combination of solutions," said Sudeep Kaippalli, a Frost & Sullivan analyst who predicts a hybrids surge.
In future, he said, "downsizing will mean you take a smaller engine and add an electric motor to it".
(Additional reporting by Gilles Guillaume, Edward Taylor and Paul Lienert; Editing by Pravin Char)
By Laurence Frost and Agnieszka Flak PARIS
Tougher European car emissions tests being introduced in the wake of the Volkswagen (VOWG_p.DE) scandal are about to bring surprising consequences: bigger engines.
Carmakers that have spent a decade shrinking engine capacities to meet emissions goals are now being forced into a costly U-turn, industry sources said, as more realistic on-the-road testing exposes deep flaws in their smallest motors.
Renault (RENA.PA), General Motors (GM.N) and VW are preparing to enlarge or scrap some of their best-selling small car engines over the next three years, the people said. Other manufacturers are expected to follow, with both diesels and gasolines affected.
The reversal makes it even harder to meet carbon dioxide (CO2) targets and will challenge development budgets already stretched by a rush into electric cars and hybrids.
"The techniques we've used to reduce engine capacities will no longer allow us to meet emissions standards," said Alain Raposo, head of powertrain at the Renault-Nissan alliance.
"We're reaching the limits of downsizing," he said at the Paris auto show, which ends on Saturday. Renault, VW and GM's Opel all declined to comment on specific engine plans.
For years, carmakers kept pace with European Union CO2 goals by shrinking engine capacities, while adding turbo chargers to make up lost power. Three-cylinder motors below one liter have become common in cars up to VW Golf-sized compacts; some Fiat (FCHA.MI) models run on twin-cylinders.
These mini-motors sailed through official lab tests conducted - until now - on rollers at unrealistically moderate temperatures and speeds. Carmakers, regulators and green groups knew that real-world CO2 and nitrogen oxide (NOx) emissions were much higher, but the discrepancy remained unresolved.
All that is about to change. Starting next year, new models will be subjected to realistic on-the-road testing for NOx, with all cars required to comply by 2019. Fuel consumption and CO2 will follow two years later under a new global test standard.
Independent testing in the wake of VW's exposure last year as a U.S. diesel emissions cheat has shed more light on the scale of the problem facing automakers.
Carmakers' smallest European engines, when driven at higher loads than current tests allow, far exceed legal emissions levels. Heat from the souped-up turbos generates diesel NOx up to 15 times over the limit; gasoline equivalents lose fuel-efficiency and spew fine particles and carbon monoxide.
"They might be doing OK in the current European test cycle, but in the real world they are not performing," said Pavan Potluri, an analyst with influential forecaster IHS Automotive.
"So there's actually a bit of 'upsizing' going on, particularly in diesel."
IN RETREAT
Carmakers have kept understandably quiet about the scale of the problem or how they plan to address it. But industry sources shared details of a retreat already underway.
GM will not replace its current 1.2-litre diesel when the engines are updated on a new architecture arriving in 2019, people with knowledge of the matter said. The smallest engine in the range will be 25-30 percent bigger.
VW is replacing its 1.4 liter three-cylinder diesel with a four-cylinder 1.6 for cars like the Polo, they said, while Renault is planning a near-10 percent enlargement to its 1.6 liter R9M diesel, which had replaced a 1.9-litre model in 2011.
In real-driving conditions, the French carmaker's 0.9-litre gasoline H4Bt injects excess fuel to prevent overheating, resulting in high emissions of unburned hydrocarbons, fine particles and carbon monoxide.
Cleaning that up with exhaust technology would be too expensive, sources say, so the three-cylinder will be dropped for a larger successor developing more torque at lower regimes to stay cool.
The turnaround on size is a European phenomenon, coinciding with diesel's sharp decline in smaller cars. Larger engines prevalent in North America, China and emerging markets still have room to improve real emissions by shrinking.
INEVITABLE RECKONING
Fiat, Renault and Opel have the worst real NOx emissions among the newest "Euro 6" diesels, according to test data from several countries. They now "face the biggest burden" of compliance costs, brokerage Evercore ISI warned last month.
Such reckonings are the inevitable result of on-the-road testing, said Thomas Weber, head of research and development at Mercedes DAIGn_.DE, which has nothing below four cylinders.
"It becomes apparent that a small engine is not an advantage," Weber told Reuters. "That's why we didn't jump on the three-cylinder engine trend."
The tougher tests may kill diesel engines smaller than 1.5 liters and gasolines below about 1.2, analysts predict. That in turn increases the challenge of meeting CO2 goals, adding urgency to the scramble for electric cars and hybrids.
VW has been far more vocal about ambitious plans announced in June to sell 2-3 million electric cars annually by 2025 - about a quarter of its current vehicle production.
"You can't downsize beyond a certain point, so the focus is shifting to a combination of solutions," said Sudeep Kaippalli, a Frost & Sullivan analyst who predicts a hybrids surge.
In future, he said, "downsizing will mean you take a smaller engine and add an electric motor to it".
(Additional reporting by Gilles Guillaume, Edward Taylor and Paul Lienert; Editing by Pravin Char)
10-14-16, 01:28 PM
#484
Lexus Champion
Audi's Le Mans program also seems to be in jeopardy because of the amount being spent. The fact that they run a diesel lmp1 car may be a downside to continuing in the wec and Le Mans.
10-14-16, 07:24 PM
#485
Lexus Champion
Thread Starter
unintended result of the VW scandal, bigger engines? That has got to suck to have to abandon R&D and redo everything
http://www.reuters.com/article/us-au...-idUSKBN12E11K
By http://www.reuters.com/journalists/laurence-frost"]Laurence Frost[/url] and http://www.reuters.com/journalists/agnieszka-flak"]Agnieszka Flak[/url] PARIS
Tougher European car emissions tests being introduced in the wake of the Volkswagen (VOWG_p.DE) scandal are about to bring surprising consequences: bigger engines.
Carmakers that have spent a decade shrinking engine capacities to meet emissions goals are now being forced into a costly U-turn, industry sources said, as more realistic on-the-road testing exposes deep flaws in their smallest motors.
Renault (RENA.PA), General Motors (GM.N) and VW are preparing to enlarge or scrap some of their best-selling small car engines over the next three years, the people said. Other manufacturers are expected to follow, with both diesels and gasolines affected.
The reversal makes it even harder to meet carbon dioxide (CO2) targets and will challenge development budgets already stretched by a rush into electric cars and hybrids.
"The techniques we've used to reduce engine capacities will no longer allow us to meet emissions standards," said Alain Raposo, head of powertrain at the Renault-Nissan alliance.
"We're reaching the limits of downsizing," he said at the Paris auto show, which ends on Saturday. Renault, VW and GM's Opel all declined to comment on specific engine plans.
For years, carmakers kept pace with European Union CO2 goals by shrinking engine capacities, while adding turbo chargers to make up lost power. Three-cylinder motors below one liter have become common in cars up to VW Golf-sized compacts; some Fiat (FCHA.MI) models run on twin-cylinders.
These mini-motors sailed through official lab tests conducted - until now - on rollers at unrealistically moderate temperatures and speeds. Carmakers, regulators and green groups knew that real-world CO2 and nitrogen oxide (NOx) emissions were much higher, but the discrepancy remained unresolved.
All that is about to change. Starting next year, new models will be subjected to realistic on-the-road testing for NOx, with all cars required to comply by 2019. Fuel consumption and CO2 will follow two years later under a new global test standard.
Independent testing in the wake of VW's exposure last year as a U.S. diesel emissions cheat has shed more light on the scale of the problem facing automakers.
Carmakers' smallest European engines, when driven at higher loads than current tests allow, far exceed legal emissions levels. Heat from the souped-up turbos generates diesel NOx up to 15 times over the limit; gasoline equivalents lose fuel-efficiency and spew fine particles and carbon monoxide.
"They might be doing OK in the current European test cycle, but in the real world they are not performing," said Pavan Potluri, an analyst with influential forecaster IHS Automotive.
"So there's actually a bit of 'upsizing' going on, particularly in diesel."
IN RETREAT
Carmakers have kept understandably quiet about the scale of the problem or how they plan to address it. But industry sources shared details of a retreat already underway.
GM will not replace its current 1.2-litre diesel when the engines are updated on a new architecture arriving in 2019, people with knowledge of the matter said. The smallest engine in the range will be 25-30 percent bigger.
VW is replacing its 1.4 liter three-cylinder diesel with a four-cylinder 1.6 for cars like the Polo, they said, while Renault is planning a near-10 percent enlargement to its 1.6 liter R9M diesel, which had replaced a 1.9-litre model in 2011.
In real-driving conditions, the French carmaker's 0.9-litre gasoline H4Bt injects excess fuel to prevent overheating, resulting in high emissions of unburned hydrocarbons, fine particles and carbon monoxide.
Cleaning that up with exhaust technology would be too expensive, sources say, so the three-cylinder will be dropped for a larger successor developing more torque at lower regimes to stay cool.
The turnaround on size is a European phenomenon, coinciding with diesel's sharp decline in smaller cars. Larger engines prevalent in North America, China and emerging markets still have room to improve real emissions by shrinking.
INEVITABLE RECKONING
Fiat, Renault and Opel have the worst real NOx emissions among the newest "Euro 6" diesels, according to test data from several countries. They now "face the biggest burden" of compliance costs, brokerage Evercore ISI warned last month.
Such reckonings are the inevitable result of on-the-road testing, said Thomas Weber, head of research and development at Mercedes DAIGn_.DE, which has nothing below four cylinders.
"It becomes apparent that a small engine is not an advantage," Weber told Reuters. "That's why we didn't jump on the three-cylinder engine trend."
The tougher tests may kill diesel engines smaller than 1.5 liters and gasolines below about 1.2, analysts predict. That in turn increases the challenge of meeting CO2 goals, adding urgency to the scramble for electric cars and hybrids.
VW has been far more vocal about ambitious plans announced in June to sell 2-3 million electric cars annually by 2025 - about a quarter of its current vehicle production.
"You can't downsize beyond a certain point, so the focus is shifting to a combination of solutions," said Sudeep Kaippalli, a Frost & Sullivan analyst who predicts a hybrids surge.
In future, he said, "downsizing will mean you take a smaller engine and add an electric motor to it".
(Additional reporting by Gilles Guillaume, Edward Taylor and Paul Lienert; Editing by Pravin Char)
http://www.reuters.com/article/us-au...-idUSKBN12E11K
Quote:
Exclusive: Carmakers forced back to bigger engines in new emissions eraBy http://www.reuters.com/journalists/laurence-frost"]Laurence Frost[/url] and http://www.reuters.com/journalists/agnieszka-flak"]Agnieszka Flak[/url] PARIS
Tougher European car emissions tests being introduced in the wake of the Volkswagen (VOWG_p.DE) scandal are about to bring surprising consequences: bigger engines.
Carmakers that have spent a decade shrinking engine capacities to meet emissions goals are now being forced into a costly U-turn, industry sources said, as more realistic on-the-road testing exposes deep flaws in their smallest motors.
Renault (RENA.PA), General Motors (GM.N) and VW are preparing to enlarge or scrap some of their best-selling small car engines over the next three years, the people said. Other manufacturers are expected to follow, with both diesels and gasolines affected.
The reversal makes it even harder to meet carbon dioxide (CO2) targets and will challenge development budgets already stretched by a rush into electric cars and hybrids.
"The techniques we've used to reduce engine capacities will no longer allow us to meet emissions standards," said Alain Raposo, head of powertrain at the Renault-Nissan alliance.
"We're reaching the limits of downsizing," he said at the Paris auto show, which ends on Saturday. Renault, VW and GM's Opel all declined to comment on specific engine plans.
For years, carmakers kept pace with European Union CO2 goals by shrinking engine capacities, while adding turbo chargers to make up lost power. Three-cylinder motors below one liter have become common in cars up to VW Golf-sized compacts; some Fiat (FCHA.MI) models run on twin-cylinders.
These mini-motors sailed through official lab tests conducted - until now - on rollers at unrealistically moderate temperatures and speeds. Carmakers, regulators and green groups knew that real-world CO2 and nitrogen oxide (NOx) emissions were much higher, but the discrepancy remained unresolved.
All that is about to change. Starting next year, new models will be subjected to realistic on-the-road testing for NOx, with all cars required to comply by 2019. Fuel consumption and CO2 will follow two years later under a new global test standard.
Independent testing in the wake of VW's exposure last year as a U.S. diesel emissions cheat has shed more light on the scale of the problem facing automakers.
Carmakers' smallest European engines, when driven at higher loads than current tests allow, far exceed legal emissions levels. Heat from the souped-up turbos generates diesel NOx up to 15 times over the limit; gasoline equivalents lose fuel-efficiency and spew fine particles and carbon monoxide.
"They might be doing OK in the current European test cycle, but in the real world they are not performing," said Pavan Potluri, an analyst with influential forecaster IHS Automotive.
"So there's actually a bit of 'upsizing' going on, particularly in diesel."
IN RETREAT
Carmakers have kept understandably quiet about the scale of the problem or how they plan to address it. But industry sources shared details of a retreat already underway.
GM will not replace its current 1.2-litre diesel when the engines are updated on a new architecture arriving in 2019, people with knowledge of the matter said. The smallest engine in the range will be 25-30 percent bigger.
VW is replacing its 1.4 liter three-cylinder diesel with a four-cylinder 1.6 for cars like the Polo, they said, while Renault is planning a near-10 percent enlargement to its 1.6 liter R9M diesel, which had replaced a 1.9-litre model in 2011.
In real-driving conditions, the French carmaker's 0.9-litre gasoline H4Bt injects excess fuel to prevent overheating, resulting in high emissions of unburned hydrocarbons, fine particles and carbon monoxide.
Cleaning that up with exhaust technology would be too expensive, sources say, so the three-cylinder will be dropped for a larger successor developing more torque at lower regimes to stay cool.
The turnaround on size is a European phenomenon, coinciding with diesel's sharp decline in smaller cars. Larger engines prevalent in North America, China and emerging markets still have room to improve real emissions by shrinking.
INEVITABLE RECKONING
Fiat, Renault and Opel have the worst real NOx emissions among the newest "Euro 6" diesels, according to test data from several countries. They now "face the biggest burden" of compliance costs, brokerage Evercore ISI warned last month.
Such reckonings are the inevitable result of on-the-road testing, said Thomas Weber, head of research and development at Mercedes DAIGn_.DE, which has nothing below four cylinders.
"It becomes apparent that a small engine is not an advantage," Weber told Reuters. "That's why we didn't jump on the three-cylinder engine trend."
The tougher tests may kill diesel engines smaller than 1.5 liters and gasolines below about 1.2, analysts predict. That in turn increases the challenge of meeting CO2 goals, adding urgency to the scramble for electric cars and hybrids.
VW has been far more vocal about ambitious plans announced in June to sell 2-3 million electric cars annually by 2025 - about a quarter of its current vehicle production.
"You can't downsize beyond a certain point, so the focus is shifting to a combination of solutions," said Sudeep Kaippalli, a Frost & Sullivan analyst who predicts a hybrids surge.
In future, he said, "downsizing will mean you take a smaller engine and add an electric motor to it".
(Additional reporting by Gilles Guillaume, Edward Taylor and Paul Lienert; Editing by Pravin Char)
Hybrids for the win! Now we need better batteries -- increase power density while reducing weight and size.
10-16-16, 04:58 AM
#486
Lexus Fanatic
iTrader: (20)
lutz and above bigger engine articles were great, thx guys.
lutz is quite right that a culture of fear and intimidation has limitations. the report about piech reminds me of wwii germany which had astounding military engineering progress, but at what cost?
may get some 'results' but will cause all kinds of other problems such as people being afraid to take initiative or take any risk for fear of 'failing' and losing their jobs. the best companies encourage risk taking, learn from 'failures', and ultimately innovate faster, not to mention being much more pleasant places to work.
as for the bigger engines, as is now obvious, all automakers configure for the tests, not real world. whether that's 'cheating' is open for interpretation. making the test more realistic is a good thing, but will have unintended consequences. either the tests will be relaxed because they are considered unrealistic, or more electric vehicles will be pushed on the public or some combination. 'innovation' is unlikely to bring major further gains with gasoline and diesel engines.
lutz is quite right that a culture of fear and intimidation has limitations. the report about piech reminds me of wwii germany which had astounding military engineering progress, but at what cost?
may get some 'results' but will cause all kinds of other problems such as people being afraid to take initiative or take any risk for fear of 'failing' and losing their jobs. the best companies encourage risk taking, learn from 'failures', and ultimately innovate faster, not to mention being much more pleasant places to work.
as for the bigger engines, as is now obvious, all automakers configure for the tests, not real world. whether that's 'cheating' is open for interpretation. making the test more realistic is a good thing, but will have unintended consequences. either the tests will be relaxed because they are considered unrealistic, or more electric vehicles will be pushed on the public or some combination. 'innovation' is unlikely to bring major further gains with gasoline and diesel engines.
Last edited by bitkahuna; 10-16-16 at 06:05 AM.
10-16-16, 06:06 AM
#487
Lexus Fanatic
iTrader: (20)
10-16-16, 12:06 PM
#488
Super Moderator
There's also the highly-toxic production of the batteries themselves, and (for plug-in hybrids and pure electrics) the electricity needing to come from some external source that in all likelyhood involves burning of fossil fuels (coal, oil, natural gas, etc).
10-16-16, 01:25 PM
#489
Lexus Champion
Refining oil uses massive amounts of electricity which usually come from fossil fuels. Battery production is no more toxic than making engine blocks, cylinder heads, catalytic converters etc. and don't forget the amount of crankcase and transmission oil used in a car over its lifetime.
10-16-16, 02:24 PM
#490
Lexus Champion
Thread Starter
Nothing is free; everything comes at a cost. You are just saying this because you do not like hybrid vehicles.
10-18-16, 05:43 PM
#492
Lexus Champion
Thread Starter
10-19-16, 08:49 AM
#494
Yahoo
There’s been plenty of bad news in the wake of Dieselgate, but this could be the worst of it. The
Audi R8 may be killed off as part of a vast cost-cutting plan at the German carmaker, brought about as a way for VW to recoup some of its losses brought about as a result of the emissions cheating scandal, according to media reports.
The cuts at Audi reportedly go far deeper than just the automaker’s mid-engined supercar. Citing German magazine Der Spiegel, Autocar reports that the cost-cutting plans could mean the loss of Audi’s widely-used MLB platform. Currently, Audi builds around 770,000 MLB-based vehicles per year.
If accurate, the loss of the MLB (which stands for Modularer Längsbaukasten, or “Modular Longitudinal Matrix”) architecture would be a far bigger blow than the loss of the R8—certainly for Audi, and potentially to the other luxury divisions of the VW Group. In addition to serving as the basis for the A4 and every larger Audi sedan, MLB is also the basic skeleton of the Audi Q7 and the Bentley Bentayaga.
To make up for the loss of the popular platform, Audi would reportedly move the smaller models currently built on MLB, such as the A4 and A5, to the MQB platform used for transverse-engined VWs such as the Passat and Golf. Larger vehicles like the A6 would move to the MSB platform introduced on the new Porsche Panamera.
Adding insult to injury, Autocar also says Audi will also not be receiving a massive planned research center at its Ingoldstadt headquarters; the company will also lose out on a new wind tunnel and crash test facility. The carmaker is also reportedly considering pulling out of Le Mans racing, as The Drive reported last week.While startling, the purported massive pullback at Audi isn’t without reason. Between the Dieselgate payouts and the VW Group’s massive push into electric vehicles in advance of its plan to sell three million EVs a year by 2025, the massive car conglomerate is looking to save money wherever it can.
Still...Audi, c’mon. You gotta find a way to keep the R8 around. You’re not gonna make Tony Stark go back to driving an Acura, are you?
Last edited by GS69; 10-19-16 at 08:56 AM.