Volkswagen diesel scandal
10-12-15, 08:21 AM
#331
JDR76, we have the very same. A very highly matrixed organization.
I suspect one of the two:
1. Lead engineer was told do what it takes to pass the EPA or find another job.
2. Lead engineer was hinted to do what it takes over a game of golf or beer.
Knowing VW board, we know it is #1.
I suspect one of the two:
1. Lead engineer was told do what it takes to pass the EPA or find another job.
2. Lead engineer was hinted to do what it takes over a game of golf or beer.
Knowing VW board, we know it is #1.
10-12-15, 10:49 AM
#332
I believe that there should have been many more people that would have known about this.
For example, in a highly matrixed organization, I would expect marketing, managers, lead engineers, firmware, software, electrical, mechanical engineers, system engineers, test engineers, quality assurance engineers, and many of these if not all should have had an idea or have known.
Marketing and the higher ups would drive the specification criteria. The managers would get their specifications from marketing and the managers would direct the lead engineers who leads their team of firmware, electrical and mechanical engineers. I bring up all those disciplines because an emissions system is not just firmware, it is comprised of electrical (PCBA control module) and mechanical components (CAD). The systems engineers would write the test and verification protocols that the emissions system would test to. The firmware, electrical and mechanical engineers would raise a flag to their lead that the emissions system cannot hit the performance and emissions specifications without blah blah blah. The test engineers would see that in their testing and bring that to the attention of their lead and systems engineers who will need to revise the test criteria. The QA engineers would verify the testing. And, there would tons of signatures signing off on everyones work.
Who knows what the lead engineers and managers did with the red flags raised by the team. I am also not sure where Bosch lies in all of this since they supported in development.
For example, in a highly matrixed organization, I would expect marketing, managers, lead engineers, firmware, software, electrical, mechanical engineers, system engineers, test engineers, quality assurance engineers, and many of these if not all should have had an idea or have known.
Marketing and the higher ups would drive the specification criteria. The managers would get their specifications from marketing and the managers would direct the lead engineers who leads their team of firmware, electrical and mechanical engineers. I bring up all those disciplines because an emissions system is not just firmware, it is comprised of electrical (PCBA control module) and mechanical components (CAD). The systems engineers would write the test and verification protocols that the emissions system would test to. The firmware, electrical and mechanical engineers would raise a flag to their lead that the emissions system cannot hit the performance and emissions specifications without blah blah blah. The test engineers would see that in their testing and bring that to the attention of their lead and systems engineers who will need to revise the test criteria. The QA engineers would verify the testing. And, there would tons of signatures signing off on everyones work.
Who knows what the lead engineers and managers did with the red flags raised by the team. I am also not sure where Bosch lies in all of this since they supported in development.
Last edited by jadu; 10-12-15 at 10:54 AM.
10-12-15, 12:34 PM
#333
Saving your job would have been only temporary fix anyway, by committing fraud in your job you could be risking your job, your family's future and other family's future of employee's who work there potentially the public and the company future also depending on how serious the fraud was you committed. And this would be worth it too you?
Please don't do any engineering in the airline industry then.
Please don't do any engineering in the airline industry then.
10-12-15, 01:01 PM
#334
Saving your job would have been only temporary fix anyway, by committing fraud in your job you could be risking your job, your family's future and other family's future of employee's who work there potentially the public and the company future also depending on how serious the fraud was you committed. And this would be worth it too you?
Please don't do any engineering in the airline industry then.
Please don't do any engineering in the airline industry then.
but keep in mind that the day the airline chiefs ask for impossible tasks to happen, this sort of behavior is bound to happen.Thank goodness for a matrixed organization. When that matrix is broken, all bets are off.
Last edited by chikoo; 10-12-15 at 01:07 PM.
10-12-15, 01:08 PM
#335
Well it looks like Mr Piech or someone else got their wish and got the engine approved by scaring his engineers into committing fraud. Look at the mess they are in now by doing this. My real point is new product lines fail all the time for corporations every day and to commit fraud to make it work just because expectations from higher ups is pressuring you it is just plain stupid. VW deserves what they get for punishment.
10-12-15, 02:39 PM
#337
And now they're going to make a movie about it! No Really!!!!
http://variety.com/2015/film/news/le...ie-1201615946/
http://variety.com/2015/film/news/le...ie-1201615946/
10-13-15, 11:23 AM
#338
Lead Lap
Saving your job would have been only temporary fix anyway, by committing fraud in your job you could be risking your job, your family's future and other family's future of employee's who work there potentially the public and the company future also depending on how serious the fraud was you committed. And this would be worth it too you?
Please don't do any engineering in the airline industry then.
Please don't do any engineering in the airline industry then.
Of course it is the exception in Third World countries if someone doesn't put his job on the line in order to make a quick buck with some sort of scam, but the Germans? That's a new one, well there's always a first time.
10-13-15, 04:25 PM
#339
Lexus Champion
Not deflect the thread but there was another manufacturer that wanted to introduce clean diesel to North America.
When Mazda realized that it would not be able to do it, the company delayed its diesel Skyactive tech on the Mazda 6 until it could figure it out. Call it the tale of two companies handling EPA regulations differently.
So far it's been about two years since the 6 was supposed to get a more powerful drivetrain. This article came out back in 2014.
http://www.greencarreports.com/news/...d-company-says
When Mazda realized that it would not be able to do it, the company delayed its diesel Skyactive tech on the Mazda 6 until it could figure it out. Call it the tale of two companies handling EPA regulations differently.
So far it's been about two years since the 6 was supposed to get a more powerful drivetrain. This article came out back in 2014.
http://www.greencarreports.com/news/...d-company-says
Last edited by MattyG; 10-13-15 at 04:30 PM. Reason: To reflect article date in link.
10-14-15, 06:38 AM
#341
Pole Position
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The German Der Spiegel ( The Mirror ) writes that up to 30 bosses had been informed about this cheat.
Link in german
http://www.spiegel.de/wirtschaft/unt...a-1057741.html
Link in german
http://www.spiegel.de/wirtschaft/unt...a-1057741.html
10-14-15, 07:33 AM
#342
Volkswagen’s cheater software was not the work of a couple of rogue engineers, as claimed by Volkswagen U.S. CEO Michael Horn. According to a report by German’s Spiegel magazine, and confirmed by a Dailykanban source in Wolfsburg, “at least 30 managers” at Volkswagen were involved. They are about to be suspended, some possibly already have been.
The managers have been identified as part of the investigation by the U.S. law firm Jones Day and Volkswagen’s internal “Revision,” says the report. Many times since its start of production in 2008, the EA 189 engine has been checked for compliance with emission rules in numerous markets of the world. That the engine was in compliance without the expensive emission treatment needed by other manufacturers “should have raised the suspicion of any engine engineer,” a Volkswagen manager told Der Spiegel.
The managers have been identified as part of the investigation by the U.S. law firm Jones Day and Volkswagen’s internal “Revision,” says the report. Many times since its start of production in 2008, the EA 189 engine has been checked for compliance with emission rules in numerous markets of the world. That the engine was in compliance without the expensive emission treatment needed by other manufacturers “should have raised the suspicion of any engine engineer,” a Volkswagen manager told Der Spiegel.
At least 30 high level managers and more than that likely...
10-14-15, 09:02 AM
#343
http://dailykanban.com/2015/10/repor...e-more-likely/
At least 30 high level managers and more than that likely...
At least 30 high level managers and more than that likely...
I haven't been lucky enough to work on the R&D and engineering of an engine and even if I did, I'd probably be under NDA. And, finding the missing expensive emissions system components would be hard to detect. It's not like some engine engineer would thoroughly pry and investigate their brand new VW diesel-they must actually own the car or know someone that does, even then you wouldn't want to tinker with the emissions on someone elses car. Chances of that are very low. Even the technicians that constantly look and work on VWs wouldn't know unless they have worked on other diesals for other manufacturers or go to school for engine design and engineering.
Last edited by jadu; 10-14-15 at 09:06 AM.
10-14-15, 09:20 AM
#344
Lexus Test Driver
interesting. I knew there had to be more people. There are many managers and upon managers to micro manage the multidisciplinary engineering team for all parts of an engine.
I haven't been lucky enough to work on the R&D and engineering of an engine and even if I did, I'd probably be under NDA. And, finding the missing expensive emissions system components would be hard to detect. It's not like some engine engineer would thoroughly pry and investigate their brand new VW diesel-they must actually own the car or know someone that does, even then you wouldn't want to tinker with the emissions on someone elses car. Chances of that are very low. Even the technicians that constantly look and work on VWs wouldn't know unless they have worked on other diesals for other manufacturers or go to school for engine design and engineering.
I haven't been lucky enough to work on the R&D and engineering of an engine and even if I did, I'd probably be under NDA. And, finding the missing expensive emissions system components would be hard to detect. It's not like some engine engineer would thoroughly pry and investigate their brand new VW diesel-they must actually own the car or know someone that does, even then you wouldn't want to tinker with the emissions on someone elses car. Chances of that are very low. Even the technicians that constantly look and work on VWs wouldn't know unless they have worked on other diesals for other manufacturers or go to school for engine design and engineering.
I think the point is that VW actively marketed this engine with the premise that it met emissions without any of the additional emission control devices (specifically SCR) when others couldn't. This in itself should have been a red flag within the engineering department at VW, and should have resulted in additional scrutiny, and it didn't. That is what presumes (innocent until proven guilty off course) that management ought to have known and either ignored or was complicit in the deceit.
10-14-15, 02:14 PM
#345
interesting. I knew there had to be more people. There are many managers and upon managers to micro manage the multidisciplinary engineering team for all parts of an engine.
I haven't been lucky enough to work on the R&D and engineering of an engine and even if I did, I'd probably be under NDA. And, finding the missing expensive emissions system components would be hard to detect. It's not like some engine engineer would thoroughly pry and investigate their brand new VW diesel-they must actually own the car or know someone that does, even then you wouldn't want to tinker with the emissions on someone elses car. Chances of that are very low. Even the technicians that constantly look and work on VWs wouldn't know unless they have worked on other diesals for other manufacturers or go to school for engine design and engineering.
I haven't been lucky enough to work on the R&D and engineering of an engine and even if I did, I'd probably be under NDA. And, finding the missing expensive emissions system components would be hard to detect. It's not like some engine engineer would thoroughly pry and investigate their brand new VW diesel-they must actually own the car or know someone that does, even then you wouldn't want to tinker with the emissions on someone elses car. Chances of that are very low. Even the technicians that constantly look and work on VWs wouldn't know unless they have worked on other diesals for other manufacturers or go to school for engine design and engineering.
As to some engine engineer going through this on their own, thats not even possible.... all of this is locked down and not accessible at all to anyone but VW and Bosch R&D team. People who fix VW cars dont have anything to do with this or way to access it, for them it is just a black box.
As documents start to show now, a lot of high up managers knew about this and thus hundreds of engineers did as well.
CEO certainly knew about it, Winterkom is a very detailed man and engineer - we all saw videos of him checking out Hyundai i30 steering wheel adjustment at trade show and yelling at his engineer how come they cant do it in Golf... and then to think that this guy did not know about how his engineers managed to comply with worlds strictest emission laws without doing SCR? Thats a joke. Do not be so naive. There is a reason they stripped him of all duties in VW group, not just VW.
Someone is going to pay for this internally since VW is going to lose $10-$30 billion