Volkswagen diesel scandal
09-30-15, 05:14 PM
#241
Och, you are very wrong in everything you wrote.
1. EPA has pretty tight standards, what you said about taping and taking off mirrors in European tests that are some 30% off EPA results for gas mileage.
2. Weak regulations have nothing to do with VW cheating on NOx test... it is actually strong positive regulation that made them fraud EPA by installing software device that modifies engine parameters during test so they output 40x less polutants than in real life.
EPA can not and will not single out any other manufacturer because so far other manufacturers did not fraud the EPA testing. Sole responsibility is on VW who decided to fraud EPA so they can sell vehicles that emit 40x more NOx in real life than in the lab.
What is sad is that you are reading some press that gets confused with CO2 emissions and NOx, as well as EPA testing vs European testing.
There is simply no confusion to what happened in the case of VW - even VW is not denying what they did at all, and their new CEO apologizes on their website for frauding the public.
40x worse NOx emissions is setting us back to 90's, pre Euro III regulations. BMW and MB vehicles tested by EPA did not emit more NOx in standardized testing while VW's emited 40x more.
1. EPA has pretty tight standards, what you said about taping and taking off mirrors in European tests that are some 30% off EPA results for gas mileage.
2. Weak regulations have nothing to do with VW cheating on NOx test... it is actually strong positive regulation that made them fraud EPA by installing software device that modifies engine parameters during test so they output 40x less polutants than in real life.
EPA can not and will not single out any other manufacturer because so far other manufacturers did not fraud the EPA testing. Sole responsibility is on VW who decided to fraud EPA so they can sell vehicles that emit 40x more NOx in real life than in the lab.
What is sad is that you are reading some press that gets confused with CO2 emissions and NOx, as well as EPA testing vs European testing.
There is simply no confusion to what happened in the case of VW - even VW is not denying what they did at all, and their new CEO apologizes on their website for frauding the public.
40x worse NOx emissions is setting us back to 90's, pre Euro III regulations. BMW and MB vehicles tested by EPA did not emit more NOx in standardized testing while VW's emited 40x more.
Makes sense, thanks for clarifying that up. Hopefully the European agencies can get their act together as well to prevent this type of subjective rating in the future.
09-30-15, 05:31 PM
#242
Lexus Fanatic
iTrader: (20)
but obviously NO auto maker agrees with you.if a car maker were to make 'one version' of a vehicle to meet every reg on the planet, then that car would either be more expensive or less competitive in one or more markets as other makers make trade-offs for different market to lower cost, increase performance, or some other goal for a given market.
in short, your idea is completely naive and unrealistic. here spwolf explains.
They all develop several different emission packages for worldwide use... for instance, new Toyota diesel 2.8l in Land Cruiser 150 has 3 different emission configurations worldwide - basic, with DPF, with DPF and SCR. Last one can pass Euro VI, middle one can do Euro V and basic one can do Euro IV emissions, depending on where it needs to sell.
just because they have those reserves doesn't mean it won't affect them much - those reserves are for r&d, to cover recall and other unplanned costs - wiping out their entire rainy day fund makes them vulnerable to bankruptcy.
09-30-15, 05:43 PM
#243
More fallout for VW
Volkswagen AG to be Removed from the Dow Jones Sustainability Indices
New York and Zurich, September 29, 2015
Effective October 6, 2015, Volkswagen AG (VW) will be removed from the Dow Jones Sustainability Indices (DJSI). A review of VW's standing in the DJSI was prompted by the recent revelations of manipulated emissions tests.
Per the published and publicly available methodology for the DJSI, potential problematic issues relating to any DJSI component company automatically trigger a Media & Stakeholder Analysis (MSA), which examines the extent of the respective company's involvement and how it manages the issue. Following the MSA, the Dow Jones Sustainability Index Committee (DJSIC) reviews the issue and decides whether the company will remain in the index, based on DJSI Guidelines.
In VW's case, the DJSIC reviewed the situation and ultimately decided to remove the Company from the DJSI World, the DJSI Europe, and all other DJSI indices. The stock will be removed after the close of trading in Frankfurt on October 5, 2015, thus making the removal effective on October 6, 2015. As a result, VW will no longer be identified as an Industry Group Leader in the "Automobiles & Components" industry group.
DJSI World Key Facts:
The Dow Jones Sustainability World Index (DJSI World) tracks the performance of the top 10% per industry of the 2,500 largest companies in the S&P Global Broad Market Index that lead their field in terms of financially material ESG factors. These 2,500 companies represent the eligible universe for the DJSI World and are assessed on an annual basis through RobecoSAM's Corporate Sustainability Assessment.
Effective October 6, 2015, Volkswagen AG (VW) will be removed from the Dow Jones Sustainability Indices (DJSI). A review of VW's standing in the DJSI was prompted by the recent revelations of manipulated emissions tests.
Per the published and publicly available methodology for the DJSI, potential problematic issues relating to any DJSI component company automatically trigger a Media & Stakeholder Analysis (MSA), which examines the extent of the respective company's involvement and how it manages the issue. Following the MSA, the Dow Jones Sustainability Index Committee (DJSIC) reviews the issue and decides whether the company will remain in the index, based on DJSI Guidelines.
In VW's case, the DJSIC reviewed the situation and ultimately decided to remove the Company from the DJSI World, the DJSI Europe, and all other DJSI indices. The stock will be removed after the close of trading in Frankfurt on October 5, 2015, thus making the removal effective on October 6, 2015. As a result, VW will no longer be identified as an Industry Group Leader in the "Automobiles & Components" industry group.
DJSI World Key Facts:
The Dow Jones Sustainability World Index (DJSI World) tracks the performance of the top 10% per industry of the 2,500 largest companies in the S&P Global Broad Market Index that lead their field in terms of financially material ESG factors. These 2,500 companies represent the eligible universe for the DJSI World and are assessed on an annual basis through RobecoSAM's Corporate Sustainability Assessment.
09-30-15, 06:04 PM
#244
09-30-15, 08:46 PM
#247
Lexus Fanatic
easy for you to say. but obviously NO auto maker agrees with you.
if a car maker were to make 'one version' of a vehicle to meet every reg on the planet, then that car would either be more expensive or less competitive in one or more markets as other makers make trade-offs for different market to lower cost, increase performance, or some other goal for a given market.
in short, your idea is completely naive and unrealistic. here spwolf explains.
but obviously NO auto maker agrees with you.if a car maker were to make 'one version' of a vehicle to meet every reg on the planet, then that car would either be more expensive or less competitive in one or more markets as other makers make trade-offs for different market to lower cost, increase performance, or some other goal for a given market.
in short, your idea is completely naive and unrealistic. here spwolf explains.
09-30-15, 09:09 PM
#248
Volkswagen AG to be Removed from the Dow Jones Sustainability Indices
http://www.autoblog.com/2015/09/30/v...ability-index/
10-01-15, 05:17 AM
#250
Lexus Fanatic
iTrader: (20)
10-01-15, 08:02 AM
#251
Lexus Fanatic
Let's put it this way, different markets demand different styling, options, power, safety. And the big one, LHD and RHD. I don't hear anyone calling that situation a conflict even though it is WAY more involved than differing emissions equipment. Either way how about we get back to discussing VW and their situation and knock off the ad hominems.
Last edited by LeX2K; 10-01-15 at 06:14 PM.
10-01-15, 08:19 AM
#252
Lexus Fanatic
iTrader: (20)
updates
more in the article links.
... Warburton noted Volkswagen had 17.6 billion euros of cash at the end of the second quarter, plus 15 billion euros of marketable securities. But he also said it had suggested in the past that it needed a minimum of 10 billion euros in net cash to run the business. ... http://www.reuters.com/article/2015/...0RU15H20151001
... A Volkswagen engine factory said Wednesday it has dropped one shift a week and the company's financial services division imposed a temporary hiring freeze as the world's largest automaker grapples with an emissions-rigging scandal. ... http://www.nbcnews.com/business/auto...-mount-n436146
... Volkswagen AG said its investigation into rigged diesel engines will probably take months to complete, highlighting the complexity of the scandal that upended the carmaker two weeks ago.The company set up a five-person committee led by Berthold Huber, the interim chairman of the Supervisory Board. The group will work closely with U.S. law firm Jones Day to unravel the use of software to cheat diesel-emissions tests, the Wolfsburg, Germany-based company said in an e-mailed statement today. Volkswagen stuck to a pre-crisis plan that Chief Financial Officer Hans Dieter Poetsch would become chairman. Frank Witter, 56, head of the financial-services division, will succeed Poetsch as CFO. ... http://www.bloomberg.com/news/articl...it-faces-fines
10-01-15, 08:53 AM
#253
Driver
Join Date: Jan 2013
Location: Ontario
Posts: 172
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Having said that, there is no question that it is now becoming clear that it's just not VW, but a few other automakers that "gamed" the lax enforcement rules around diesel emissions to fool regulators and consumers in providing a competitively priced diesel engines, including those big German and American brands. This is how I envisaged the VW drama would open the can of worms here: https://www.clublexus.com/forums/car...ml#post9192699
I am not happy one bit that my speculation is turning out to be true. But as more and more automakers are being pulled into this mud, I am happy that Toyota is still one company that turns out always followed the rules and did not allow short term profit to tarnish the engineers recommendations.
On a related topic, I have always blamed Audi for offering me the same gasoline engine in diesel variant charging me about $6,000 Canadian more for the diesel. This never made sense for my pocket books, except for the environmental concerns. At least Toyota offers a hybrid version at the same premium but it seemed more technological involvement than the diesel engine and saved more gas on the way. Well, now I guess it makes some sense given the diesel's add on elements to meet regulation standards. But I remember they were charging same high price for A3 diesels over gasoline, while providing nothing more but basically cheating people and regulators along the way.
10-01-15, 09:21 AM
#254
Lexus Fanatic
Just a typical cheap shot when a person doesn't have anything to counter an argument.
It really bugs me when people get on their soap box and complain about pollution when in fact they are the consumes that enable the pollution in the first place.
And talking philosophically, this is one sacrifice that the residents of that point source will have to make so that the planetizens can enjoy the consumable energy for their use, including wherever you live at present bitkahuna. China's pollution wouldn't exist if you were not demanding to live off their offerings
10-01-15, 09:28 AM
#255
I never told anyone, but I have an 06 GS430 as well, to accompany the SC300. We got it last year. love that car
mk "conflict" isn't the right word. And, I agree diesel emissions standards differ, a lot.
THIS is the business decision that VW made. Rather than spending the resources to achieve all three, they chose not to spend the extra time, money, R&D, and resources and they cheated. ECU's and control modules are very very complex systems-trust me, I would know. To simply add and remove emissions components are easier said than done. This would require code changes, unit testing, mock runs, validation, road testing, emission testing, and the list goes on
You don't get it. An engine that is sold in California for example can easily be adapted to other markets with less strict regs. Some or all (hopefully not) of the emissions components are simply removed. Where VW ran into a wall was trying to make the diesel clean, fuel efficient and cost competitive. They couldn't do all three so they cheated. I think what a lot of people don't realize is running a diesel lean (better fuel economy) will actually make it produce much higher emissions due to the nature of the NOx trap.
Last edited by jadu; 10-01-15 at 09:32 AM.