Volkswagen diesel scandal
09-22-15, 04:51 PM
#106
There are two major questions here:
1. Is there anybody who knows how they found this out ? I mean they had this cheat for years and suddenly out of nowhere this came up. Insider ?
2. Did VW really think that this never ever would be found by anybody ? If that the case, they must had a very high trust in how this program was hidden in the ECU. But then again, everybody knows that there is no such thing as an unhackable computer.
1. Is there anybody who knows how they found this out ? I mean they had this cheat for years and suddenly out of nowhere this came up. Insider ?
2. Did VW really think that this never ever would be found by anybody ? If that the case, they must had a very high trust in how this program was hidden in the ECU. But then again, everybody knows that there is no such thing as an unhackable computer.
http://www.bloomberg.com/news/articl...lean-air-group
09-22-15, 04:58 PM
#107
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Pretty certain this was posted back on page 1, 2, or 3 in the thread.
http://www.bloomberg.com/news/articl...lean-air-group
http://www.bloomberg.com/news/articl...lean-air-group
09-22-15, 05:24 PM
#108
Which luxury brands will benefit from the defection of former and would-have-been Audi owners? Many who picked the Audis for performance will likely stick with the Germans (BMW,MB), although Lexus hybrids may get some of the environmentally-conscious types who bought Audi diesels thinking they were "environmentally correct". Lexus may just get enough of the defectors for it to win the sales crown as top selling luxury car brand in the US for 2015 or maybe 2016. Acura will likely move up to 4th place (currently occupied by Audi).
As to the worldwide, I just heard on my local news how this is just conspiracy theory by americans to topple the biggest and most profitable automaker in the world - VW. VW is neither biggest nor is it by far the most profitable, and they even admitted to wrongdoing but that didnt stop $$$ media to publish their part... so I dont think it will influence their sales much in the end... It will certainly affect their profits, so far by over $7bil and probably far more than that.
09-22-15, 06:23 PM
#109
Lexus Test Driver
There are two major questions here:
1. Is there anybody who knows how they found this out ? I mean they had this cheat for years and suddenly out of nowhere this came up. Insider ?
2. Did VW really think that this never ever would be found by anybody ? If that the case, they must had a very high trust in how this program was hidden in the ECU. But then again, everybody knows that there is no such thing as an unhackable computer.
1. Is there anybody who knows how they found this out ? I mean they had this cheat for years and suddenly out of nowhere this came up. Insider ?
2. Did VW really think that this never ever would be found by anybody ? If that the case, they must had a very high trust in how this program was hidden in the ECU. But then again, everybody knows that there is no such thing as an unhackable computer.
09-22-15, 07:56 PM
#110
Lexus Champion
Thread Starter
Here is a summary of the discovery time-line...
Source: Autoblog
On the CBC (Canadian Broadcasting Corporation) news this evening, it said that the engine control unit affected the NOx trap, making it ineffective. Using the NOx trap would increase fuel consumption but not using it would decrease consumption, but at the expense of higher NOx emissions.
This statement caught my attention:
If the cheating system "[rendered] inoperative elements of the vehicle emissions control systems", what does that mean? Does it mean that the emissions control system has been turned off permanently and cannot be fixed or did the ECU merely turn it off (and so could be turned back on)?
How the Volkswagen cheating probe developed
Both the Environmental Protection Agency and California Air Resources Board served Volkswagen with a Notice of Violation on Friday, saying the company intentionally circumvented emissions standards by using "defeat devices." Here's a look back at the agencies' emissions enforcement history and how the charges involving Volkswagen developed.
August 1998 – Honda spends $267 million to settle charges it violated the Clean Air Act by disabling "misfire monitoring devices" installed on more than 1.6 million vehicles. Ford spends $7.8 million to settle a charge it violated the Clean Air Act by installing defeat devices on 60,000 Ford Econoline vans.
May 2014 – Working with the International Council on Clean Transportation, researchers at West Virginia University find significantly higher in-use emissions from a 2012 Jetta and 2013 Passat and alert the EPA to their findings.
November 3, 2014 – Korean automakers Hyundai and Kia agree to pay a $100 million fine for overstating the fuel economy on several of their models by as much as six miles per gallon. In announcing the fine, government officials sought to make an example of the two companies to deter further cheating.
VW officials admit the vehicles were designed with a defeat device to "bypass, defeat and render inoperative elements of the vehicle emissions control systems."
"This type of conduct quite simply will not be tolerated," said then-Attorney General Eric Holder. "And the Justice Department will never rest or waver in our determination to take action against any company that engages in such activities – whenever and wherever they are uncovered."
December 2, 2014 – Following discussions that stemmed from West Virginia University's findings, Volkswagen agrees to initiate a recall of 500,000 cars. The company says a software update will fix the nitrous oxide trap technology and selective catalytic reduction technology causing the cars to miss emissions thresholds.
May 6, 2015 – CARB wanted to see whether the software fix implemented by Volkswagen worked. Using portable emissions measurement systems, the regulatory officials found NOx emissions were still significantly higher than expected.
July 8, 2015 – Results from the CARB testing are shared with the EPA and Volkswagen. A series of technical meetings follow, in which Volkswagen discloses the vehicles have a second calibration intended to run only during certification testing.
September 3, 2015 – In a meeting between Volkswagen and the two regulatory agencies, Volkswagen officials admit the vehicles were designed and manufactured with a defeat device that intended to "bypass, defeat and render inoperative elements of the vehicle emissions control systems," according to CARB.
September 18, 2015 – The EPA issues a Notice of Violation to Volkswagen, and CARB says it has initiated an enforcement investigation. The EPA says pollutants are as much as 40 times beyond allowable thresholds.
September 20, 2015 – Volkswagen issues its first response to the burgeoning crisis. "I personally am deeply sorry that we have broken the trust of our customers and the public," Martin Winterkorn, Volkswagen AG's CEO, writes in a prepared statement. "We will cooperate fully with the responsible agencies, with transparency and urgency, to clearly, openly and completely establish all of the facts in this case."
September 21, 2015 – Volkswagen's stock drops 16.5 percent on news of the cheating scandal. In the US, the House Committee Energy and Commerce announced an investigation, and a Justice Department criminal probe is expected to follow.
Both the Environmental Protection Agency and California Air Resources Board served Volkswagen with a Notice of Violation on Friday, saying the company intentionally circumvented emissions standards by using "defeat devices." Here's a look back at the agencies' emissions enforcement history and how the charges involving Volkswagen developed.
August 1998 – Honda spends $267 million to settle charges it violated the Clean Air Act by disabling "misfire monitoring devices" installed on more than 1.6 million vehicles. Ford spends $7.8 million to settle a charge it violated the Clean Air Act by installing defeat devices on 60,000 Ford Econoline vans.
May 2014 – Working with the International Council on Clean Transportation, researchers at West Virginia University find significantly higher in-use emissions from a 2012 Jetta and 2013 Passat and alert the EPA to their findings.
November 3, 2014 – Korean automakers Hyundai and Kia agree to pay a $100 million fine for overstating the fuel economy on several of their models by as much as six miles per gallon. In announcing the fine, government officials sought to make an example of the two companies to deter further cheating.
VW officials admit the vehicles were designed with a defeat device to "bypass, defeat and render inoperative elements of the vehicle emissions control systems."
"This type of conduct quite simply will not be tolerated," said then-Attorney General Eric Holder. "And the Justice Department will never rest or waver in our determination to take action against any company that engages in such activities – whenever and wherever they are uncovered."
December 2, 2014 – Following discussions that stemmed from West Virginia University's findings, Volkswagen agrees to initiate a recall of 500,000 cars. The company says a software update will fix the nitrous oxide trap technology and selective catalytic reduction technology causing the cars to miss emissions thresholds.
May 6, 2015 – CARB wanted to see whether the software fix implemented by Volkswagen worked. Using portable emissions measurement systems, the regulatory officials found NOx emissions were still significantly higher than expected.
July 8, 2015 – Results from the CARB testing are shared with the EPA and Volkswagen. A series of technical meetings follow, in which Volkswagen discloses the vehicles have a second calibration intended to run only during certification testing.
September 3, 2015 – In a meeting between Volkswagen and the two regulatory agencies, Volkswagen officials admit the vehicles were designed and manufactured with a defeat device that intended to "bypass, defeat and render inoperative elements of the vehicle emissions control systems," according to CARB.
September 18, 2015 – The EPA issues a Notice of Violation to Volkswagen, and CARB says it has initiated an enforcement investigation. The EPA says pollutants are as much as 40 times beyond allowable thresholds.
September 20, 2015 – Volkswagen issues its first response to the burgeoning crisis. "I personally am deeply sorry that we have broken the trust of our customers and the public," Martin Winterkorn, Volkswagen AG's CEO, writes in a prepared statement. "We will cooperate fully with the responsible agencies, with transparency and urgency, to clearly, openly and completely establish all of the facts in this case."
September 21, 2015 – Volkswagen's stock drops 16.5 percent on news of the cheating scandal. In the US, the House Committee Energy and Commerce announced an investigation, and a Justice Department criminal probe is expected to follow.
Source: Autoblog
On the CBC (Canadian Broadcasting Corporation) news this evening, it said that the engine control unit affected the NOx trap, making it ineffective. Using the NOx trap would increase fuel consumption but not using it would decrease consumption, but at the expense of higher NOx emissions.
This statement caught my attention:
VW officials admit the vehicles were designed with a defeat device to "bypass, defeat and render inoperative elements of the vehicle emissions control systems."
09-23-15, 06:13 AM
#113
Lexus Champion
09-23-15, 07:11 AM
#114
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Yes, but that is by virtue of the 4 cylinder. Remember, this all started with the telltale signs of higher actual fuel economy over the EPA ratings (above 20%). The V6 Audi TDI's were found to be within the EPA spec, as part of the covert investigation. The investigators theorized, only the 4 cylinders were the offenders at that time.
With the proportions of fallout, I am bound to believe that the scrutiny will naturally go beyond the V4 diesels. Different matter but some of the recent claims by Porsche's future concept electric vehicles was mind-boggling, such as superfast charging and whatnot. Who knows, where this will end. But rest assured, the followup investigation to more than one engine type and more than one manufacturer, related or not.
This episode is nothing less than an automotive blasphemy of gargantuan proportions by none other than the world's biggest manufacturer, and more than just one engine will be caught in the fallout. There's no easy fix for this, both technically and politically. It is not out of whack to imagine VW may declare bankruptcy when the dust settles. I don't believe any one of the manufacturers out there are playing the regulations game within full rules without hiding some of the facts, big or small. But for now, the biggest automaker is caught in the middle.
With the proportions of fallout, I am bound to believe that the scrutiny will naturally go beyond the V4 diesels. Different matter but some of the recent claims by Porsche's future concept electric vehicles was mind-boggling, such as superfast charging and whatnot. Who knows, where this will end. But rest assured, the followup investigation to more than one engine type and more than one manufacturer, related or not.
This episode is nothing less than an automotive blasphemy of gargantuan proportions by none other than the world's biggest manufacturer, and more than just one engine will be caught in the fallout. There's no easy fix for this, both technically and politically. It is not out of whack to imagine VW may declare bankruptcy when the dust settles. I don't believe any one of the manufacturers out there are playing the regulations game within full rules without hiding some of the facts, big or small. But for now, the biggest automaker is caught in the middle.
09-23-15, 08:07 AM
#115
Yes, but that is by virtue of the 4 cylinder. Remember, this all started with the telltale signs of higher actual fuel economy over the EPA ratings (above 20%). The V6 Audi TDI's were found to be within the EPA spec, as part of the covert investigation. The investigators theorized, only the 4 cylinders were the offenders at that time.
With the proportions of fallout, I am bound to believe that the scrutiny will naturally go beyond the V4 diesels. Different matter but some of the recent claims by Porsche's future concept electric vehicles was mind-boggling, such as superfast charging and whatnot. Who knows, where this will end. But rest assured, the followup investigation to more than one engine type and more than one manufacturer, related or not.
This episode is nothing less than an automotive blasphemy of gargantuan proportions by none other than the world's biggest manufacturer, and more than just one engine will be caught in the fallout. There's no easy fix for this, both technically and politically. It is not out of whack to imagine VW may declare bankruptcy when the dust settles. I don't believe any one of the manufacturers out there are playing the regulations game within full rules without hiding some of the facts, big or small. But for now, the biggest automaker is caught in the middle.
With the proportions of fallout, I am bound to believe that the scrutiny will naturally go beyond the V4 diesels. Different matter but some of the recent claims by Porsche's future concept electric vehicles was mind-boggling, such as superfast charging and whatnot. Who knows, where this will end. But rest assured, the followup investigation to more than one engine type and more than one manufacturer, related or not.
This episode is nothing less than an automotive blasphemy of gargantuan proportions by none other than the world's biggest manufacturer, and more than just one engine will be caught in the fallout. There's no easy fix for this, both technically and politically. It is not out of whack to imagine VW may declare bankruptcy when the dust settles. I don't believe any one of the manufacturers out there are playing the regulations game within full rules without hiding some of the facts, big or small. But for now, the biggest automaker is caught in the middle.
it is not that complicated at all - 2.0 TDI did not use SCR and that engine can not meet EPA standards... their bigger engines do have SCR and can meet EPA standards. Everyone else's diesels already have SCR and meet the standards.
VW will certainly not declare bankruptcy because of recall of 500k cars in their worst market. At worst, they will lose 2 years worth of profits and reshuffle CEO.
09-23-15, 09:30 AM
#116
Lexus Test Driver
it is not that complicated at all - 2.0 TDI did not use SCR and that engine can not meet EPA standards... their bigger engines do have SCR and can meet EPA standards. Everyone else's diesels already have SCR and meet the standards.
VW will certainly not declare bankruptcy because of recall of 500k cars in their worst market. At worst, they will lose 2 years worth of profits and reshuffle CEO.
VW will certainly not declare bankruptcy because of recall of 500k cars in their worst market. At worst, they will lose 2 years worth of profits and reshuffle CEO.
Anyway, Winkerton just resigned:
http://www.nytimes.com/2015/09/24/bu...id=tw-bna&_r=0
09-23-15, 09:33 AM
#117
Lexus Fanatic
iTrader: (20)
Building a car to meet certain specs or to do well on crash tests is not cheating. BMW under reporting HP? Not an issue as that's not regulated. Creating a software algorithm to artificially lower a regulated output? That's cheating. It's basically having a cheat sheet on a test and hiding it when the teacher is making their rounds.
that's not cheating, that's playing the hand you're dealt.
i believe they will fight it and win or get a modest settlement as no one was harmed except i heard some tree huggers cried.
09-23-15, 09:51 AM
#118
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i don't believe it's artificially lowering a regulated output. the software 'says' - if you drive like the stupid epa testers you'll get lower emissions. if not, screw the atmosphere.
that's not cheating, that's playing the hand you're dealt.
i believe they will fight it and win or get a modest settlement as no one was harmed except i heard some tree huggers cried.
that's not cheating, that's playing the hand you're dealt.
i believe they will fight it and win or get a modest settlement as no one was harmed except i heard some tree huggers cried.
09-23-15, 10:04 AM
#119
Lexus Test Driver
i don't believe it's artificially lowering a regulated output. the software 'says' - if you drive like the stupid epa testers you'll get lower emissions. if not, screw the atmosphere.
that's not cheating, that's playing the hand you're dealt.
i believe they will fight it and win or get a modest settlement as no one was harmed except i heard some tree huggers cried.
that's not cheating, that's playing the hand you're dealt.
i believe they will fight it and win or get a modest settlement as no one was harmed except i heard some tree huggers cried.
VW cheated plain and simple and, based on other reports, this is not the first time they either failed to report or programmatically manipulated sensor results to show they meet emission requirements.
http://www.cnbc.com/2015/09/23/vw-ha...t-devices.html
09-23-15, 10:12 AM
#120
Lexus Champion
i don't believe it's artificially lowering a regulated output. the software 'says' - if you drive like the stupid epa testers you'll get lower emissions. if not, screw the atmosphere.
that's not cheating, that's playing the hand you're dealt.
i believe they will fight it and win or get a modest settlement as no one was harmed except i heard some tree huggers cried.
that's not cheating, that's playing the hand you're dealt.
i believe they will fight it and win or get a modest settlement as no one was harmed except i heard some tree huggers cried.
..........you're in for a big surprise
oh, and also...it's official....
Personally I think it's funny as shti -- VW gets burned BIG TIME for trying to cheat and they got busted....good, less stinking diesels on the road!
As investors reacted to news of Volkswagen cheating on EPA emissions tests with its diesel engines, the German automaker’s stocks started to plummet. After opening with a market value of €77-billion, VW saw that number tumble to €53.3-billion in just two days. That means the company’s market value has dropped US$26.4-billion
Last edited by bagwell; 09-23-15 at 10:21 AM.