Volkswagen diesel scandal
09-18-15, 08:02 PM
#16
It's VASTLY different, only a small percentage of people install aftermarket tuner chips, every single car VW rolls off the assembly line has the cheat built it. On having sympathy, hell no every auto maker has to adhere to the same standards. VW is cheating to gain a market advantage, similar to what Hyundai did when they lied about their mileage ratings.
Exactly. For instance Mazda caught a lot of criticism when they announced that they are delaying Skyactiv-D diesel engine in the US, because it can't meet emissions requirements, and they need to implement an after treatment system, similar to urea injection in BMW/Merc. http://www.thetruthaboutcars.com/201...ftertreatment/
Yet, VW got away with cheating, and deserves whatever harsh penalty thats coming their way.
09-18-15, 08:05 PM
#17
Lexus Test Driver
i agree it's different in numbers, but not in principle.
I agree that what's good for the goose is good for the gander. But my point was that EPA has made it very difficult for automakers to comply....the system is now so strict that it invites cheating by its very nature.
I agree that what's good for the goose is good for the gander. But my point was that EPA has made it very difficult for automakers to comply....the system is now so strict that it invites cheating by its very nature.
09-18-15, 08:31 PM
#18
Lexus Champion
Too fast? Auto makers have been pushing gas guzzling high profit SUVs for decades and several times mandated average fuel economy standards have been scaled back.
09-19-15, 07:18 AM
#19
Lexus Champion
Thread Starter
The Americans and the Europeans have differed with regard to vehicle emissions. The American objectives set out by the EPA, prodded by CARB, for the past 20+ years has been to clean up the emissions that cause that terrible smog layer that lies over large cities (especially Los Angeles). The European objectives, however (until recently with Euro VI), have been concentrated on reducing greenhouse gas (GHG) emissions with little regard to other exhaust emissions.
To clean up smog, you need to reduce nitrogen oxides (NOx) and solid particulates. To reduce GHG, you need to reduce carbon dioxide (CO2), and since CO2 emissions are dependent upon fuel consumption -- lower fuel consumption and you reduce CO2 emissions -- Europe has been concerned with lowering fuel consumption. Diesel engines are particularly bad when it comes to NOx and solid particulate emissions, yet they are particularly fuel efficient. So EPA (prodded by CARB) emissions regulations almost killed Diesel cars in America, but Europe has encouraged the use of Diesel to lower fuel consumption (and thereby lowering CO2 emissions).
Until the advent of selective catalytic reduction (SCR, implemented with Diesel Exhaust Fluid or AdBlue), people were saying that Diesel cars were effectively dead in North America. Thanks to Mercedes-Benz, that introduced AdBlue to North America, we can now buy clean Diesel cars. VW uses AdBlue in its larger engines but claims that its smaller engines (used in the Golf, Jetta, Beetle and A3) are clean enough to meet EPA regulations without SCR.
Mazda has tried to meet EPA regulations without SCR for its SkyActiv-D engine but has not been successful. Now it seems that VW has been cheating on its small engines.
To see how successful the EPA emissions regulations have been compared to the Euro I - V regulations, North Americans just have to spend some time in any large (Western) European city. Air pollution (caused largely by vehicle emissions) is so bad that Paris wants to ban Diesel cars within the city by 2020; London may follow. I just came back from a European vacation that ended with 3 days in Rome. Not long after arrival in that city, I got a headache that did not clear until I returned to the relatively clean air of Canada. Air pollution was just so bad that breathing was difficult and the air was tinged a brownish-yellow colour (not really discernable until you return to the relatively clear air of North America).
To clean up smog, you need to reduce nitrogen oxides (NOx) and solid particulates. To reduce GHG, you need to reduce carbon dioxide (CO2), and since CO2 emissions are dependent upon fuel consumption -- lower fuel consumption and you reduce CO2 emissions -- Europe has been concerned with lowering fuel consumption. Diesel engines are particularly bad when it comes to NOx and solid particulate emissions, yet they are particularly fuel efficient. So EPA (prodded by CARB) emissions regulations almost killed Diesel cars in America, but Europe has encouraged the use of Diesel to lower fuel consumption (and thereby lowering CO2 emissions).
Until the advent of selective catalytic reduction (SCR, implemented with Diesel Exhaust Fluid or AdBlue), people were saying that Diesel cars were effectively dead in North America. Thanks to Mercedes-Benz, that introduced AdBlue to North America, we can now buy clean Diesel cars. VW uses AdBlue in its larger engines but claims that its smaller engines (used in the Golf, Jetta, Beetle and A3) are clean enough to meet EPA regulations without SCR.
Mazda has tried to meet EPA regulations without SCR for its SkyActiv-D engine but has not been successful. Now it seems that VW has been cheating on its small engines.
To see how successful the EPA emissions regulations have been compared to the Euro I - V regulations, North Americans just have to spend some time in any large (Western) European city. Air pollution (caused largely by vehicle emissions) is so bad that Paris wants to ban Diesel cars within the city by 2020; London may follow. I just came back from a European vacation that ended with 3 days in Rome. Not long after arrival in that city, I got a headache that did not clear until I returned to the relatively clean air of Canada. Air pollution was just so bad that breathing was difficult and the air was tinged a brownish-yellow colour (not really discernable until you return to the relatively clear air of North America).
09-19-15, 07:22 AM
#20
Lexus Fanatic
Part of the problem is that the price of gas is so volatile, both up and down, that automakers have a hard time keeping up with constantly changing customer taxes and desires. If it gets back to $4-5 a gallon (in the U.S.) like it was a few years ago, they probably won't be able to give Suburbans and Expeditions away.
Although E85 ethanol is generally available in the Midwest, for the most part, we've also been very lax in this country about building (and investing in) an alternate-fuel infrastructure of recharging and refueling stations. If vehicles didn't burn as much gasoline to start with, air pollution and emissions would be much less of an issue than it is now....EPA would be less involved, and we would be less likely to see issues like we have with VW, Ford, and Hyundai.
09-19-15, 07:29 AM
#21
Lexus Fanatic
I just came back from a European vacation that ended with 3 days in Rome. Not long after arrival in that city, I got a headache that did not clear until I returned to the relatively clean air of Canada. Air pollution was just so bad that breathing was difficult and the air was tinged a brownish-yellow colour (not really discernable until you return to the relatively clear air of North America).
Sorry that you had to endure health problems, but, on the other hand, just be thankful you weren't in Beijing or Shanghai. If you want to see REAL problems, just visit China.
09-19-15, 08:54 AM
#22
To see how successful the EPA emissions regulations have been compared to the Euro I - V regulations, North Americans just have to spend some time in any large (Western) European city. Air pollution (caused largely by vehicle emissions) is so bad that Paris wants to ban Diesel cars within the city by 2020; London may follow. I just came back from a European vacation that ended with 3 days in Rome. Not long after arrival in that city, I got a headache that did not clear until I returned to the relatively clean air of Canada. Air pollution was just so bad that breathing was difficult and the air was tinged a brownish-yellow colour (not really discernable until you return to the relatively clear air of North America).
There are things there that are far nastier.
09-19-15, 10:08 AM
#25
The Americans and the Europeans have differed with regard to vehicle emissions. The American objectives set out by the EPA, prodded by CARB, for the past 20+ years has been to clean up the emissions that cause that terrible smog layer that lies over large cities (especially Los Angeles). The European objectives, however (until recently with Euro VI), have been concentrated on reducing greenhouse gas (GHG) emissions with little regard to other exhaust emissions.
To clean up smog, you need to reduce nitrogen oxides (NOx) and solid particulates. To reduce GHG, you need to reduce carbon dioxide (CO2), and since CO2 emissions are dependent upon fuel consumption -- lower fuel consumption and you reduce CO2 emissions -- Europe has been concerned with lowering fuel consumption. Diesel engines are particularly bad when it comes to NOx and solid particulate emissions, yet they are particularly fuel efficient. So EPA (prodded by CARB) emissions regulations almost killed Diesel cars in America, but Europe has encouraged the use of Diesel to lower fuel consumption (and thereby lowering CO2 emissions).
Until the advent of selective catalytic reduction (SCR, implemented with Diesel Exhaust Fluid or AdBlue), people were saying that Diesel cars were effectively dead in North America. Thanks to Mercedes-Benz, that introduced AdBlue to North America, we can now buy clean Diesel cars. VW uses AdBlue in its larger engines but claims that its smaller engines (used in the Golf, Jetta, Beetle and A3) are clean enough to meet EPA regulations without SCR.
Mazda has tried to meet EPA regulations without SCR for its SkyActiv-D engine but has not been successful. Now it seems that VW has been cheating on its small engines.
To see how successful the EPA emissions regulations have been compared to the Euro I - V regulations, North Americans just have to spend some time in any large (Western) European city. Air pollution (caused largely by vehicle emissions) is so bad that Paris wants to ban Diesel cars within the city by 2020; London may follow. I just came back from a European vacation that ended with 3 days in Rome. Not long after arrival in that city, I got a headache that did not clear until I returned to the relatively clean air of Canada. Air pollution was just so bad that breathing was difficult and the air was tinged a brownish-yellow colour (not really discernable until you return to the relatively clear air of North America).
To clean up smog, you need to reduce nitrogen oxides (NOx) and solid particulates. To reduce GHG, you need to reduce carbon dioxide (CO2), and since CO2 emissions are dependent upon fuel consumption -- lower fuel consumption and you reduce CO2 emissions -- Europe has been concerned with lowering fuel consumption. Diesel engines are particularly bad when it comes to NOx and solid particulate emissions, yet they are particularly fuel efficient. So EPA (prodded by CARB) emissions regulations almost killed Diesel cars in America, but Europe has encouraged the use of Diesel to lower fuel consumption (and thereby lowering CO2 emissions).
Until the advent of selective catalytic reduction (SCR, implemented with Diesel Exhaust Fluid or AdBlue), people were saying that Diesel cars were effectively dead in North America. Thanks to Mercedes-Benz, that introduced AdBlue to North America, we can now buy clean Diesel cars. VW uses AdBlue in its larger engines but claims that its smaller engines (used in the Golf, Jetta, Beetle and A3) are clean enough to meet EPA regulations without SCR.
Mazda has tried to meet EPA regulations without SCR for its SkyActiv-D engine but has not been successful. Now it seems that VW has been cheating on its small engines.
To see how successful the EPA emissions regulations have been compared to the Euro I - V regulations, North Americans just have to spend some time in any large (Western) European city. Air pollution (caused largely by vehicle emissions) is so bad that Paris wants to ban Diesel cars within the city by 2020; London may follow. I just came back from a European vacation that ended with 3 days in Rome. Not long after arrival in that city, I got a headache that did not clear until I returned to the relatively clean air of Canada. Air pollution was just so bad that breathing was difficult and the air was tinged a brownish-yellow colour (not really discernable until you return to the relatively clear air of North America).
this is political due to euro car makers... Up until few years back, Euro regulations have always been stricter than EPAs, but now it is politics.
09-19-15, 11:07 AM
#26
Pole Position
It's VASTLY different, only a small percentage of people install aftermarket tuner chips, every single car VW rolls off the assembly line has the cheat built it. On having sympathy, hell no every auto maker has to adhere to the same standards. VW is cheating to gain a market advantage, similar to what Hyundai did when they lied about their mileage ratings.
Maybe those crowing about German forced induction superiority might want to get off the cheer squad now : there's no free lunch and it makes Toyota's/Lexus' longheld insistence on NA/hybrid motors and the long gestation time for Lexus' first turbo engines look like responsible action and a company that does its due diligence.
09-19-15, 11:41 AM
#27
Pole Position
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Car and Driver says VW has admitted to installing the "defeat detection" software so that toxic emissions aren't emitted during an EPA inspection.
http://blog.caranddriver.com/volkswa...ions-in-fines/
http://blog.caranddriver.com/volkswa...ions-in-fines/
09-19-15, 01:04 PM
#28
Car and Driver says VW has admitted to installing the "defeat detection" software so that toxic emissions aren't emitted during an EPA inspection.
http://blog.caranddriver.com/volkswa...ions-in-fines/
http://blog.caranddriver.com/volkswa...ions-in-fines/
found “a sophisticated software algorithm” referred to as a “defeat device” that let the vehicles exceed lawful NOx emissions levels on the road while blocking them when the car detected it was undergoing EPA emissions testing. The software uses steering angle, speed, engine run times, and atmospheric-pressure information that “precisely track the parameters of the federal test procedure used for emission testing,” according to the EPA.
VW admitted it had installed the software only after the EPA and the California Air Resources Board hinted that they would not certify the company’s 2016 diesel models. In May 2014, West Virginia University researchers found “significantly higher” emissions from a 2012 Jetta TDI and a 2013 Passat TDI and reported this information to the EPA. In December 2014, Volkswagen updated ECU software on certain cars to address the issue, but CARB found minimal improvements and could not figure why the OBD-II controller wasn’t indicating any emissions errors. During this time, Volkswagen’s various answers did not explain the “higher test results consistently confirmed during CARB’s testing.”
09-19-15, 01:41 PM
#29
Lexus Test Driver
EPA big, bad gov. Agency? Fine, deal with it in Congress, at the Senate. From last I heard, they have the power to curb EPA in case of over reach. But rules apply to everyone unless changed through legal means.
This is clearly the use of illicit device/software to circumvent government regulations and gain market advantage. This is worse than lying about consumption rate. It should be dealt with on a civil liability AND criminal level.
On another point, while any one can make a choice to cheat, by installing a tuner chip and removing it prior to the test, it's a choice each one makes individually. If allegations prove be true, then there was no choice for the customers here, this was systemic corporate malfeasance at it's worst. I hope they just ban then from selling cars here for a couple years. That would serve as an example to other corporations and a lesson to VW.
This is clearly the use of illicit device/software to circumvent government regulations and gain market advantage. This is worse than lying about consumption rate. It should be dealt with on a civil liability AND criminal level.
On another point, while any one can make a choice to cheat, by installing a tuner chip and removing it prior to the test, it's a choice each one makes individually. If allegations prove be true, then there was no choice for the customers here, this was systemic corporate malfeasance at it's worst. I hope they just ban then from selling cars here for a couple years. That would serve as an example to other corporations and a lesson to VW.
Last edited by My0gr81; 09-19-15 at 01:56 PM.
09-19-15, 02:00 PM
#30
Lexus Fanatic
Yes.....that was my point. Between both vehicular and non-vehicular pollution, China has become the world's ecological basket-case. People walk around breathing through handkerchiefs and respirators.
