Volkswagen diesel scandal
04-21-16, 08:38 PM
#451
Lexus Test Driver
So VW were cheating when they tweaked their engine software to run test cycle-specific code, in order to meet EPA requirements without urea treatment or DPFs. The other manufacturers were obeying the letter of the law, but not the spirit, by tweaking their diesels to run cleaner at specific settings.
Seems all gray to me but at least the others put in treatment systems, even if real world emissions are much more than tested. I don't think this will greatly affect sales of diesel cars in Europe, not until cities start restricting access based on particulate and NOx levels.
Seems all gray to me but at least the others put in treatment systems, even if real world emissions are much more than tested. I don't think this will greatly affect sales of diesel cars in Europe, not until cities start restricting access based on particulate and NOx levels.
04-22-16, 09:23 AM
#452
Lexus Champion
Thread Starter
German carmakers to recall 630,000 cars to check emissions software
German carmakers to recall 630,000 cars to check emissions software
Volkswagens, Porsches, Audis and Mercedes included in recall
German car manufacturers will recall 630,000 Porsche, Volkswagen Opel, Audi and Mercedes vehicles to fix diesel emissions management software, a German government official said on Friday, widening a clampdown on pollution in the wake of the Volkswagen scandal.
German public broadcaster ARD reported that the recall was voluntary.
The recall is to ensure that a legal loophole which allows manufacturers to throttle back emissions treatment systems under certain circumstances is tightened to ensure lower levels of pollution going forward, according to the government official.
As part of a broader investigation into high levels of health-threatening nitric oxide diesel emissions, the German government ordered tests on a broad range of vehicles but found only Volkswagen had installed illegal manipulation software commonly referred to as a defeat device.
Volkswagen has already acknowledged using special software to cheat on U.S. diesel emissions tests and offered to pay substantial fines and compensation to American owners.
The car company also said Friday it will take a 16.2 billion-euro ($23.3 billion Cdn) hit in its 2015 accounts related to the emissions scandal in the U.S.
The company had delayed its earnings announcement until it could get a better estimate of the costs involved. Analysts say the total costs in fines, legal judgments and lost sales will be significantly higher.
Volkswagens, Porsches, Audis and Mercedes included in recall
German car manufacturers will recall 630,000 Porsche, Volkswagen Opel, Audi and Mercedes vehicles to fix diesel emissions management software, a German government official said on Friday, widening a clampdown on pollution in the wake of the Volkswagen scandal.
German public broadcaster ARD reported that the recall was voluntary.
The recall is to ensure that a legal loophole which allows manufacturers to throttle back emissions treatment systems under certain circumstances is tightened to ensure lower levels of pollution going forward, according to the government official.
As part of a broader investigation into high levels of health-threatening nitric oxide diesel emissions, the German government ordered tests on a broad range of vehicles but found only Volkswagen had installed illegal manipulation software commonly referred to as a defeat device.
Volkswagen has already acknowledged using special software to cheat on U.S. diesel emissions tests and offered to pay substantial fines and compensation to American owners.
The car company also said Friday it will take a 16.2 billion-euro ($23.3 billion Cdn) hit in its 2015 accounts related to the emissions scandal in the U.S.
The company had delayed its earnings announcement until it could get a better estimate of the costs involved. Analysts say the total costs in fines, legal judgments and lost sales will be significantly higher.
04-22-16, 08:00 PM
#453
Lexus Test Driver
The problem is that manufacturers are gaming easily gamed tests for fuel consumption and emissions, and they're getting away with it. VW outright cheated and ran different ECU routines when the car underwent testing while everyone else optimized performance with a warm engine at low speeds. It's just a degree of crookedness, I'd say - real world emissions from cold engines are still very high, making test results and standards meaningless. A Euro 6-capable engine that only stays within limits 10% of the time is a joke. Portable emissions equipment already exist, why not make these part of a real world emissions test?
Last edited by chromedome; 04-22-16 at 08:04 PM.
04-22-16, 08:49 PM
#454
I was always skeptical about how much cleaner newer diesels were, I mean the fuel is pretty foul stuff compared to gasoline to start with. Doesn't suprise me that cold start emissions are extremely high and not part of the test. Now how long it takes for the engine to "warm up" and start running the emissions control software and starts becoming compliant with test standards is the real question. I mean if its -10c in the winter in Berlin, how long does it take your VW Golf diesel to warm up to where it isn't spilling pollutants like crazy? 1km, 5km, 10km, 10, 20, 30 minutes of idling? If everybody is doing crazy short trips and none of the emissions stuff on the diesel cars in Europe work for that first 15-20 minutes, then its no wonder the smog is so bad over there.
04-23-16, 07:02 PM
#455
Lexus Champion
Thread Starter
The problem is that manufacturers are gaming easily gamed tests for fuel consumption and emissions, and they're getting away with it. VW outright cheated and ran different ECU routines when the car underwent testing while everyone else optimized performance with a warm engine at low speeds. It's just a degree of crookedness, I'd say - real world emissions from cold engines are still very high, making test results and standards meaningless. A Euro 6-capable engine that only stays within limits 10% of the time is a joke. Portable emissions equipment already exist, why not make these part of a real world emissions test?
Yet, there may be certain procedures that can only be run outside of the lab, such as the EPA's coast-down test that measures and determines the multiplication factor for resistance due to wind, weight and mechanical drag; but they are likely as tightly controlled as possible, being run on the same section of road each time. Any other "real world" testing will also have to be carefully designed to take into account (and minimise) any such variable factors.
04-25-16, 06:54 PM
#456
Lexus Test Driver
Seems like real world testing with portable emissions equipment shows diesel engines polluting heavily on a cold start/cold day and on heavy load, like when climbing hills. If the Euro emissions tests are aimed at warm engines on a light load, that makes the tests themselves pointless because the optimum running conditions won't be reached by the majority of cars.
It's even worse than lenient fuel economy tests. A lower real-world mpg value might get hypermilers riled up whereas 10x NOx and particulate emissions means lots more smog hanging over cities.
It's even worse than lenient fuel economy tests. A lower real-world mpg value might get hypermilers riled up whereas 10x NOx and particulate emissions means lots more smog hanging over cities.
04-26-16, 10:40 AM
#457
Diesel in itself is a scandal. Nothing about it is cheap or clean except that one led to the other. The govt decides to provide a price break since it is used primarily in commercial vehicles ie trucks&trailers. Then automakers decide to use that to make smaller cars as they can tout cheaper fuel and higher mileage. What a load of coal dump.
04-26-16, 11:17 AM
#458
Lexus Fanatic
iTrader: (20)
They all cheat. Politicians lied and told europeans how great diesels are and now have very polluted cities.
This too shall pass, and the politicians will act outraged and grab billions for their coffers as the car companies bribe them for the next round of 'legislation' for 'the children'. It's all a sad joke.
This too shall pass, and the politicians will act outraged and grab billions for their coffers as the car companies bribe them for the next round of 'legislation' for 'the children'. It's all a sad joke.
06-28-16, 09:34 AM
#460
Lexus Champion
Thread Starter
Volkswagen settles U.S. emissions lawsuit, but Canadian owners still waiting
Volkswagen will repair or buy back every one of its polluting vehicles in the USA but there is no deal yet for Canadian VW owners. And there is a push in the European Union for VW to extend a similar buy-out deal to Europe.
Source: CBC News
Source: Autoblog
Volkswagen will repair or buy back every one of its polluting vehicles on U.S. roads under a $14.7-billion US deal the automaker has reached to settle lawsuits stemming from its emissions-cheating scandal.
In a deal announced by U.S. regulators Tuesday, the automaker will pay the money to buy back roughly half a million diesel cars that spew far more emissions into the air than claimed, because the automaker installed so-called "defeat devices" on them designed to ace emissions tests while belching out more than three dozen times the legal limit of pollutants in real-world driving scenarios.
Up to $10 billion of that total will go to buying back cars, in addition to compensation of between $5,000 US and $10,000 US per owner, although owners will have the option of keeping their cars and having them fixed. The exact cost will depend on how many drivers of the two-litre TDI diesel vehicles between the 2009 and 2014 model years opt to sell their cars back to the automaker.
The remaining $4.7 billion US will come in the form of fines and investments the company has agreed to make to offset its environmental toll.
"We can't undo the damage that Volkswagen did to our air quality," U.S. Deputy Attorney General Sally Yates said at a press conference with other regulators Tuesday.
The company still faces class action and other lawsuits, but the settlement details bring a close to one of the biggest question marks of the emissions scandal.
Canada not explicitly included
It does not, however, bring any such closure to Canadian Volkswagen owners who have been left in the lurch through the process.
"While the settlement terms in the U.S. proceeding will be a consideration for the Canadian discussions, settlement details coming out of the U.S. court proceeding may not apply to Canada," Volkswagen said.
"Our hope is to provide remedies to Canadians on pace with U.S. customers."
Volkswagen Canada is working with stakeholders involved in several dozen legal proceedings and hopes to have an update on the details of those negotiations by the end of July.
"Volkswagen takes this matter very seriously and continues to work with Canadian regulators to resolve this issue for all affected customers.
There's still the pressing question of how, exactly, the company plans to actually fix the engines.
According to court documents filed Tuesday, there currently is no repair that can bring the cars into compliance with U.S. pollution regulations. If VW does propose a repair, it must be approved by the Environmental Protection Agency and the California Air Resources Board.
The settlement still requires a judge's approval before it can go into effect, but if that happens the program could roll out as soon as this fall. Owners can choose to decline Volkswagen's offer and sue the company on their own.
Don Marron, a banker from Allentown, Penn., who owns a 2012 Jetta SportWagen diesel, said he's glad Volkswagen is offering more compensation than earlier reports had suggested. But Marron wants assurance that if Volkswagen fixes his car but he doesn't like the way it performs, the company will still buy it back. And if he keeps his car and saves Volkswagen money, he wants compensation for doing that.
"At this moment, I don't know anything more than I did a couple of months ago," he said.
The scandal erupted in September when it was learned that the German automaker had fitted many of its cars with software to fool emissions tests and had put dirty vehicles on the road. Investigators determined that the cars emitted more than 40 times the legal limit of nitrogen oxide, which can cause respiratory problems in humans. Car owners and the U.S. Department of Justice sued.
VW is still facing billions more in fines and penalties, a lawsuit by state attorneys general and potential criminal charges.
The $14.7 billion US settlement also does not include another roughly 90,000 3-liter Volkswagen diesels, which had another version of cheating software.
VW in April took an $18.2 billion charge to cover the cost of the global scandal, which includes a total of 11 million vehicles worldwide.
The company has admitted developing sophisticated software that determined when the cars were being tested by the EPA on a treadmill-like device called a dynamometer and turned on the pollution controls. Once all wheels began spinning and the steering wheel was turned, the controls were turned off.
The company, which knew the EPA's testing routine, got away with the scam for seven years before being caught by the International Council on Clean Transportation, which hired West Virginia University to test a VW in real roads conditions.
In a deal announced by U.S. regulators Tuesday, the automaker will pay the money to buy back roughly half a million diesel cars that spew far more emissions into the air than claimed, because the automaker installed so-called "defeat devices" on them designed to ace emissions tests while belching out more than three dozen times the legal limit of pollutants in real-world driving scenarios.
Up to $10 billion of that total will go to buying back cars, in addition to compensation of between $5,000 US and $10,000 US per owner, although owners will have the option of keeping their cars and having them fixed. The exact cost will depend on how many drivers of the two-litre TDI diesel vehicles between the 2009 and 2014 model years opt to sell their cars back to the automaker.
The remaining $4.7 billion US will come in the form of fines and investments the company has agreed to make to offset its environmental toll.
"We can't undo the damage that Volkswagen did to our air quality," U.S. Deputy Attorney General Sally Yates said at a press conference with other regulators Tuesday.
The company still faces class action and other lawsuits, but the settlement details bring a close to one of the biggest question marks of the emissions scandal.
Canada not explicitly included
It does not, however, bring any such closure to Canadian Volkswagen owners who have been left in the lurch through the process.
"While the settlement terms in the U.S. proceeding will be a consideration for the Canadian discussions, settlement details coming out of the U.S. court proceeding may not apply to Canada," Volkswagen said.
"Our hope is to provide remedies to Canadians on pace with U.S. customers."
Volkswagen Canada is working with stakeholders involved in several dozen legal proceedings and hopes to have an update on the details of those negotiations by the end of July.
"Volkswagen takes this matter very seriously and continues to work with Canadian regulators to resolve this issue for all affected customers.
There's still the pressing question of how, exactly, the company plans to actually fix the engines.
According to court documents filed Tuesday, there currently is no repair that can bring the cars into compliance with U.S. pollution regulations. If VW does propose a repair, it must be approved by the Environmental Protection Agency and the California Air Resources Board.
The settlement still requires a judge's approval before it can go into effect, but if that happens the program could roll out as soon as this fall. Owners can choose to decline Volkswagen's offer and sue the company on their own.
Don Marron, a banker from Allentown, Penn., who owns a 2012 Jetta SportWagen diesel, said he's glad Volkswagen is offering more compensation than earlier reports had suggested. But Marron wants assurance that if Volkswagen fixes his car but he doesn't like the way it performs, the company will still buy it back. And if he keeps his car and saves Volkswagen money, he wants compensation for doing that.
"At this moment, I don't know anything more than I did a couple of months ago," he said.
The scandal erupted in September when it was learned that the German automaker had fitted many of its cars with software to fool emissions tests and had put dirty vehicles on the road. Investigators determined that the cars emitted more than 40 times the legal limit of nitrogen oxide, which can cause respiratory problems in humans. Car owners and the U.S. Department of Justice sued.
VW is still facing billions more in fines and penalties, a lawsuit by state attorneys general and potential criminal charges.
The $14.7 billion US settlement also does not include another roughly 90,000 3-liter Volkswagen diesels, which had another version of cheating software.
VW in April took an $18.2 billion charge to cover the cost of the global scandal, which includes a total of 11 million vehicles worldwide.
The company has admitted developing sophisticated software that determined when the cars were being tested by the EPA on a treadmill-like device called a dynamometer and turned on the pollution controls. Once all wheels began spinning and the steering wheel was turned, the controls were turned off.
The company, which knew the EPA's testing routine, got away with the scam for seven years before being caught by the International Council on Clean Transportation, which hired West Virginia University to test a VW in real roads conditions.
As she's done before, European Commission commissioner Elzbieta Bienkowska is saying she wants Volkswagen to treat all of its scandalized diesel customers in the same way. Bienkowska said this weekend that whatever VW pays out to US diesel owners is what it should pay to diesel buyers in Europe.
06-28-16, 11:37 AM
#461
I bet VW Europe will fight them tooth and nail about doing buybacks for cars over there. Half a million cars in the US is just a mere drop in the bucket to the number of diesels they've sold in Europe over the same time.
If I were the environmentalist type, I'd have a problem with them buying back and crushing my newish car that only has, say 50k miles on it. Such a waste of materials, resources, and yay, more air pollution for the scrap steel being shipped back to china on a ship and melted down in a grossly polluting steel mill.
If I were the environmentalist type, I'd have a problem with them buying back and crushing my newish car that only has, say 50k miles on it. Such a waste of materials, resources, and yay, more air pollution for the scrap steel being shipped back to china on a ship and melted down in a grossly polluting steel mill.
06-29-16, 05:50 AM
#462
Lexus Fanatic
iTrader: (20)
i don't believe vw will be as penalized in europe. why? job killer!
06-29-16, 11:20 AM
#463
Lead Lap
If your a VW owner, I`d buy a lotto ticket real quick, maybe lightening will strike twice CAUSE THEY HIT THE JACKPOT lol
Regardless of the Indirect reasons/hidden agendas the EU has to not penalize VW, the fix for their cars is quite simple due to the regulations in place at the time of sale. The US cars were supposedly under stricter guidelines that would be economically and technically impossible for VW.
Regardless of the Indirect reasons/hidden agendas the EU has to not penalize VW, the fix for their cars is quite simple due to the regulations in place at the time of sale. The US cars were supposedly under stricter guidelines that would be economically and technically impossible for VW.
07-04-16, 10:30 PM
#464
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I can't wait to sell mine back to VW. The car has done well overall but the MILights have given me a lot of grief, including one that tells me my tag lights are faulty on a daily basis even though I know that's not true. I put 40,000 miles on the car in about 14 months and the savings were huge. The thing is, if I were to keep it, I am looking at a $4,000 bill to replace the DPF (diesel particulate filter) in another 6,500 miles or so for a 2010 model. No thanks, VW!
07-05-16, 12:35 AM
#465
And when do all the Jet plane makers have to pay up for all the tons they spew out every minute of the day?
Take all the jet planes per day in the US, as compaired to all the VW diesels and you will see the diesels clean or not put out nothing as compaired.
Jet engines have been exempt for years from any emissions.
Take all the jet planes per day in the US, as compaired to all the VW diesels and you will see the diesels clean or not put out nothing as compaired.
Jet engines have been exempt for years from any emissions.