is toyota like gm 2.0?
09-01-15, 09:47 AM
#1
Lexus Fanatic
Thread Starter
iTrader: (20)
is toyota like gm 2.0?
gm around the 90s seemed to become run by bean counters, cutting costs wherever they felt the "customer wouldn't notice" which to me is contempt for and disrespect of one's customers. now maybe gm felt it needed to do that with massively increased new competition (primarily from japan), and massive obligations for union benefits and a work force they simply could not cut back due to union contracts. roger smith, a ceo back then was pretty obsessed with bringing new robots and automation to gm, but the problems were several - robots being relative new, had problems, and gm couldn't get rid of their bloated workforce anyway, so the robots were under-utilized.
gm tried to keep afloat with tons of variations of basically the same vehicles under different brands, plus various 'radical' products (like the pontiac aztek
) and other fiascos. saturn was a bright spot for a while, but overall the cars were pretty bad too. side note, i remember being on the highway once as passenger in a friend's saturn, and we simply couldn't talk to one another (with the windows up) because it was so loud.
of course fast forward to 2008 and the economic collapse and gm's house of cards also collapsed. the sad part was that before that happened gm WAS doing what they needed to do to get back on track, with higher quality, more innovation, and a streamlined product portfolio. but it was too little too late. as we know though, the govt stepped in, bailed them out, and gm is still going, and overall doing pretty well, considering everything.
swithing to toyota... which by pretty much any measure, is spectacularly successful.
they make tons of money, they have very high quality products, and they are very innovative* (*when they want to be).
but to me it seems like despite making tons of money, they micro manage product cost in a way eerily reminiscent of old gm. i believe toyota often tries to figure out what they hope "the customer won't notice" if they take out (or don't put in). we've seen examples of it over and over. whether it's a lack of options, trim that seems needlessly cheap, or even less soundproofing in a model that previously was known as very quiet.
like gm back then, toyota is now facing massively increased competition, from s. korea, europe, china, and reinvigorated "u.s." brands (each of the big 3 are pretty global in reality), so maybe they feel the need to be obsessed with cost, but i think it hurts toyota. hurts? they're the most successful manufacturer, i hear ya say! well, so was gm at one time. good things CAN and do come to an end. vw, while less profitable, is now the largest global producer of vehicles by a smidgen. and we know it's only a matter of time before chinese (and perhaps indian) products, while currently sucky, get decent and flood the world. toyota will be at a disadvantage in the largest potential market because japanese brands are not exactly welcome in china for historical and political reasons.
now this isn't in any way an obituary for toyota, but i am saying they need to open the purse strings and stop being so stingy. vehicles from all brands are getting a LOT better. they're higher quality. they're more refined. they have more features and innovation than ever.
toyota seems very slow to introduce new models and even refreshes, but i'm sure their execs and bean counters are 'pleased' with financial results, regardless.
toyota is not alone in being stingy (or slow), the much smaller honda basically has made similar mistakes with crap recent versions of the civic, crappy old engines and transmissions they kept around for WAY too long, and really aged models like last gen pilot, and duds like crosstour, etc. honda i would argue seems to have gotten the message. their successful cr-v had a significant refresh for '15, their accord is nicely refreshed, the hr-v is well positioned, the new pilot is a giant leap over the old one, they now have 8 and 9 speed autos all over and hands down the best cvt on the market.
i expect toyota WILL show signs of waking from the slumber in the next couple of years... while sales are still great overall, i'm sure they know they need some new 'wow' for the market. but if not, i believe their market position will weaken.
with our beloved brand lexus, it seems to me they have gone for gimmicky styling to increase sales, and it hasn't worked. the new NX and RC models are keeping sales near or at 'record' levels, but the rest of the product line now seems to be ambushed on all sides by german and other competitors. people looking for a classy luxury vehicle aren't looking for styling that's too 'in your face' and i think lexus has gone too far. lexus has been known for the best quality, reliability, refinement, value, AND innovation. right now i don't think they're there (top or close) on value or innovation. doesn't mean they won't come back, but they've got to get a move on.
what do you think?
gm tried to keep afloat with tons of variations of basically the same vehicles under different brands, plus various 'radical' products (like the pontiac aztek
) and other fiascos. saturn was a bright spot for a while, but overall the cars were pretty bad too. side note, i remember being on the highway once as passenger in a friend's saturn, and we simply couldn't talk to one another (with the windows up) because it was so loud.of course fast forward to 2008 and the economic collapse and gm's house of cards also collapsed. the sad part was that before that happened gm WAS doing what they needed to do to get back on track, with higher quality, more innovation, and a streamlined product portfolio. but it was too little too late. as we know though, the govt stepped in, bailed them out, and gm is still going, and overall doing pretty well, considering everything.
swithing to toyota... which by pretty much any measure, is spectacularly successful.
they make tons of money, they have very high quality products, and they are very innovative* (*when they want to be).but to me it seems like despite making tons of money, they micro manage product cost in a way eerily reminiscent of old gm. i believe toyota often tries to figure out what they hope "the customer won't notice" if they take out (or don't put in). we've seen examples of it over and over. whether it's a lack of options, trim that seems needlessly cheap, or even less soundproofing in a model that previously was known as very quiet.
like gm back then, toyota is now facing massively increased competition, from s. korea, europe, china, and reinvigorated "u.s." brands (each of the big 3 are pretty global in reality), so maybe they feel the need to be obsessed with cost, but i think it hurts toyota. hurts? they're the most successful manufacturer, i hear ya say! well, so was gm at one time. good things CAN and do come to an end. vw, while less profitable, is now the largest global producer of vehicles by a smidgen. and we know it's only a matter of time before chinese (and perhaps indian) products, while currently sucky, get decent and flood the world. toyota will be at a disadvantage in the largest potential market because japanese brands are not exactly welcome in china for historical and political reasons.
now this isn't in any way an obituary for toyota, but i am saying they need to open the purse strings and stop being so stingy. vehicles from all brands are getting a LOT better. they're higher quality. they're more refined. they have more features and innovation than ever.
toyota seems very slow to introduce new models and even refreshes, but i'm sure their execs and bean counters are 'pleased' with financial results, regardless.
toyota is not alone in being stingy (or slow), the much smaller honda basically has made similar mistakes with crap recent versions of the civic, crappy old engines and transmissions they kept around for WAY too long, and really aged models like last gen pilot, and duds like crosstour, etc. honda i would argue seems to have gotten the message. their successful cr-v had a significant refresh for '15, their accord is nicely refreshed, the hr-v is well positioned, the new pilot is a giant leap over the old one, they now have 8 and 9 speed autos all over and hands down the best cvt on the market.
i expect toyota WILL show signs of waking from the slumber in the next couple of years... while sales are still great overall, i'm sure they know they need some new 'wow' for the market. but if not, i believe their market position will weaken.
with our beloved brand lexus, it seems to me they have gone for gimmicky styling to increase sales, and it hasn't worked. the new NX and RC models are keeping sales near or at 'record' levels, but the rest of the product line now seems to be ambushed on all sides by german and other competitors. people looking for a classy luxury vehicle aren't looking for styling that's too 'in your face' and i think lexus has gone too far. lexus has been known for the best quality, reliability, refinement, value, AND innovation. right now i don't think they're there (top or close) on value or innovation. doesn't mean they won't come back, but they've got to get a move on.
what do you think?
09-01-15, 10:05 AM
#2
Lexus Test Driver
There is a key difference in comparing GM to Toyota. Toyota has been guilty of cost cutting and cheapness over the past few years, but they still produce a reliable car that, overall, is of good quality. 1990s GM could not come close to saying that. And I think that a sufficient number of people will overlook cost cutting if they are still getting a good reliable car.
09-01-15, 10:32 AM
#3
Lexus Champion
Part of the problem may be that we are looking at Toyota from a North American perspective. North Americans are very price conscious; we want our cars for the lowest possible price and if we want a smaller car, we expect a smaller price, ignoring the fact that it costs as much to produce a small car as it does to produce a larger one.
Yet Toyota is trying to sell cars here that they designed and built in Japan, a very high-cost country where it costs a lot to design, produce and sell cars. Toyota can sell their high-cost cars in Japan at higher prices but is forced to sell the cars it exports to North America for lower prices, so cost-cutting is a given.
In comparison, GM largely produces where it sells so there is less of an expectation gap between production costs and sale prices where in North America.
I believe that things are looking better, though, as Toyota builds more vehicles (the popular ones, at least) here in North America; and local design is being given more autonomy. The lower cost-to-produce TNGA platform should help also: with the foundation less costly to produce, they should be able to load their cars up with more want-to-have features. I am hoping for a return to adjustable rear headrests (if only to make the installation of child car seats easier), independent rear suspension (and something other than rear McPherson struts) across the whole car lineup, and 4-wheel disks across the whole lineup. After these basics, they can load the cars up with the snazzy "luxury" features that Hyundai and Kia are now offering.
Yet Toyota is trying to sell cars here that they designed and built in Japan, a very high-cost country where it costs a lot to design, produce and sell cars. Toyota can sell their high-cost cars in Japan at higher prices but is forced to sell the cars it exports to North America for lower prices, so cost-cutting is a given.
In comparison, GM largely produces where it sells so there is less of an expectation gap between production costs and sale prices where in North America.
I believe that things are looking better, though, as Toyota builds more vehicles (the popular ones, at least) here in North America; and local design is being given more autonomy. The lower cost-to-produce TNGA platform should help also: with the foundation less costly to produce, they should be able to load their cars up with more want-to-have features. I am hoping for a return to adjustable rear headrests (if only to make the installation of child car seats easier), independent rear suspension (and something other than rear McPherson struts) across the whole car lineup, and 4-wheel disks across the whole lineup. After these basics, they can load the cars up with the snazzy "luxury" features that Hyundai and Kia are now offering.
09-01-15, 10:39 AM
#4
Lexus Fanatic
Thread Starter
iTrader: (20)
awesome feedback, thanks! 
09-01-15, 10:43 AM
#5
Lexus Fanatic
Thread Starter
iTrader: (20)
And I think that a sufficient number of people will overlook cost cutting if they are still getting a good reliable car.
09-01-15, 11:10 AM
#7
I don't think Toyota is like GM, because their cars are still as competitive as ever, but their Lexus brand is stagnating. They keep taking one half assed step forward while the competition take two giant leaps forward, and their entire line up is just too vanilla. IMO, they will continue to have great sales and profits, but they will lose all the enthusiasts.
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09-01-15, 11:19 AM
#8
I don't think Toyota is like GM, because their cars are still as competitive as ever, but their Lexus brand is stagnating. They keep taking one half assed step forward while the competition take two giant leaps forward, and their entire line up is just too vanilla. IMO, they will continue to have great sales and profits, but they will lose all the enthusiasts.
09-01-15, 11:41 AM
#9
I'm personally not about to hold my breath til I'm an old fart for Lexus to finally make something that sparks excitement when there are a ton of exciting cars from the competition.
09-01-15, 11:43 AM
#10
Lexus Fanatic
I agree, some of the newer Toyota are a lot better than the cars that were produced in 05-12. But Toyota historically rode out products for long periods of time, in the current climate, Toyota more than ever has had to work on styling more than other things.
Toyota is the current king of using the same platforms for eons. The same engines as well.
On the other hand, core vehicles such as the Corolla, Camry, Avalon, Prius sure do get upgraded correctly.
Sad to see what is happening to the Sequoia.
The LS460 is on the unthinkable of how many MYs? I still do love the current LS styling and interior.
09-01-15, 11:43 AM
#11
I don't think Toyota is like GM, because their cars are still as competitive as ever, but their Lexus brand is stagnating. They keep taking one half assed step forward while the competition take two giant leaps forward, and their entire line up is just too vanilla. IMO, they will continue to have great sales and profits, but they will lose all the enthusiasts.
09-01-15, 11:58 AM
#12
Lexus Champion
i believe toyota often tries to figure out what they hope "the customer won't notice" if they take out (or don't put in). we've seen examples of it over and over. whether it's a lack of options, trim that seems needlessly cheap, or even less soundproofing in a model that previously was known as very quiet.
). I keep hearing people talk about the ride height, but all the Lexus data shows the RC RWD and AWD with the same ground clearance (5.3 inches) and the same overall height (54.9 inches). The GS AWD models are correctly identified as riding higher than their RWD counterparts, but I'm not sure about the RC. To my eye, I can't see a difference.
09-01-15, 12:15 PM
#13
gm around the 90s seemed to become run by bean counters, cutting costs wherever they felt the "customer wouldn't notice" which to me is contempt for and disrespect of one's customers. now maybe gm felt it needed to do that with massively increased new competition (primarily from japan), and massive obligations for union benefits and a work force they simply could not cut back due to union contracts. roger smith, a ceo back then was pretty obsessed with bringing new robots and automation to gm, but the problems were several - robots being relative new, had problems, and gm couldn't get rid of their bloated workforce anyway, so the robots were under-utilized.
gm tried to keep afloat with tons of variations of basically the same vehicles under different brands, plus various 'radical' products (like the pontiac aztek) and other fiascos. saturn was a bright spot for a while, but overall the cars were pretty bad too. side note, i remember being on the highway once as passenger in a friend's saturn, and we simply couldn't talk to one another (with the windows up) because it was so loud.
of course fast forward to 2008 and the economic collapse and gm's house of cards also collapsed. the sad part was that before that happened gm WAS doing what they needed to do to get back on track, with higher quality, more innovation, and a streamlined product portfolio. but it was too little too late. as we know though, the govt stepped in, bailed them out, and gm is still going, and overall doing pretty well, considering everything.
swithing to toyota... which by pretty much any measure, is spectacularly successful. they make tons of money, they have very high quality products, and they are very innovative* (*when they want to be).
but to me it seems like despite making tons of money, they micro manage product cost in a way eerily reminiscent of old gm. i believe toyota often tries to figure out what they hope "the customer won't notice" if they take out (or don't put in). we've seen examples of it over and over. whether it's a lack of options, trim that seems needlessly cheap, or even less soundproofing in a model that previously was known as very quiet.
like gm back then, toyota is now facing massively increased competition, from s. korea, europe, china, and reinvigorated "u.s." brands (each of the big 3 are pretty global in reality), so maybe they feel the need to be obsessed with cost, but i think it hurts toyota. hurts? they're the most successful manufacturer, i hear ya say! well, so was gm at one time. good things CAN and do come to an end. vw, while less profitable, is now the largest global producer of vehicles by a smidgen. and we know it's only a matter of time before chinese (and perhaps indian) products, while currently sucky, get decent and flood the world. toyota will be at a disadvantage in the largest potential market because japanese brands are not exactly welcome in china for historical and political reasons.
now this isn't in any way an obituary for toyota, but i am saying they need to open the purse strings and stop being so stingy. vehicles from all brands are getting a LOT better. they're higher quality. they're more refined. they have more features and innovation than ever.
toyota seems very slow to introduce new models and even refreshes, but i'm sure their execs and bean counters are 'pleased' with financial results, regardless.
toyota is not alone in being stingy (or slow), the much smaller honda basically has made similar mistakes with crap recent versions of the civic, crappy old engines and transmissions they kept around for WAY too long, and really aged models like last gen pilot, and duds like crosstour, etc. honda i would argue seems to have gotten the message. their successful cr-v had a significant refresh for '15, their accord is nicely refreshed, the hr-v is well positioned, the new pilot is a giant leap over the old one, they now have 8 and 9 speed autos all over and hands down the best cvt on the market.
i expect toyota WILL show signs of waking from the slumber in the next couple of years... while sales are still great overall, i'm sure they know they need some new 'wow' for the market. but if not, i believe their market position will weaken.
with our beloved brand lexus, it seems to me they have gone for gimmicky styling to increase sales, and it hasn't worked. the new NX and RC models are keeping sales near or at 'record' levels, but the rest of the product line now seems to be ambushed on all sides by german and other competitors. people looking for a classy luxury vehicle aren't looking for styling that's too 'in your face' and i think lexus has gone too far. lexus has been known for the best quality, reliability, refinement, value, AND innovation. right now i don't think they're there (top or close) on value or innovation. doesn't mean they won't come back, but they've got to get a move on.
what do you think?
gm tried to keep afloat with tons of variations of basically the same vehicles under different brands, plus various 'radical' products (like the pontiac aztek
) and other fiascos. saturn was a bright spot for a while, but overall the cars were pretty bad too. side note, i remember being on the highway once as passenger in a friend's saturn, and we simply couldn't talk to one another (with the windows up) because it was so loud.of course fast forward to 2008 and the economic collapse and gm's house of cards also collapsed. the sad part was that before that happened gm WAS doing what they needed to do to get back on track, with higher quality, more innovation, and a streamlined product portfolio. but it was too little too late. as we know though, the govt stepped in, bailed them out, and gm is still going, and overall doing pretty well, considering everything.
swithing to toyota... which by pretty much any measure, is spectacularly successful.
they make tons of money, they have very high quality products, and they are very innovative* (*when they want to be).but to me it seems like despite making tons of money, they micro manage product cost in a way eerily reminiscent of old gm. i believe toyota often tries to figure out what they hope "the customer won't notice" if they take out (or don't put in). we've seen examples of it over and over. whether it's a lack of options, trim that seems needlessly cheap, or even less soundproofing in a model that previously was known as very quiet.
like gm back then, toyota is now facing massively increased competition, from s. korea, europe, china, and reinvigorated "u.s." brands (each of the big 3 are pretty global in reality), so maybe they feel the need to be obsessed with cost, but i think it hurts toyota. hurts? they're the most successful manufacturer, i hear ya say! well, so was gm at one time. good things CAN and do come to an end. vw, while less profitable, is now the largest global producer of vehicles by a smidgen. and we know it's only a matter of time before chinese (and perhaps indian) products, while currently sucky, get decent and flood the world. toyota will be at a disadvantage in the largest potential market because japanese brands are not exactly welcome in china for historical and political reasons.
now this isn't in any way an obituary for toyota, but i am saying they need to open the purse strings and stop being so stingy. vehicles from all brands are getting a LOT better. they're higher quality. they're more refined. they have more features and innovation than ever.
toyota seems very slow to introduce new models and even refreshes, but i'm sure their execs and bean counters are 'pleased' with financial results, regardless.
toyota is not alone in being stingy (or slow), the much smaller honda basically has made similar mistakes with crap recent versions of the civic, crappy old engines and transmissions they kept around for WAY too long, and really aged models like last gen pilot, and duds like crosstour, etc. honda i would argue seems to have gotten the message. their successful cr-v had a significant refresh for '15, their accord is nicely refreshed, the hr-v is well positioned, the new pilot is a giant leap over the old one, they now have 8 and 9 speed autos all over and hands down the best cvt on the market.
i expect toyota WILL show signs of waking from the slumber in the next couple of years... while sales are still great overall, i'm sure they know they need some new 'wow' for the market. but if not, i believe their market position will weaken.
with our beloved brand lexus, it seems to me they have gone for gimmicky styling to increase sales, and it hasn't worked. the new NX and RC models are keeping sales near or at 'record' levels, but the rest of the product line now seems to be ambushed on all sides by german and other competitors. people looking for a classy luxury vehicle aren't looking for styling that's too 'in your face' and i think lexus has gone too far. lexus has been known for the best quality, reliability, refinement, value, AND innovation. right now i don't think they're there (top or close) on value or innovation. doesn't mean they won't come back, but they've got to get a move on.
what do you think?
As to the Lexus, while we may or may not like the styling, obviously their sales are at largest levels ever and their cars sell well at highest prices ever. Yes, NX and RC bring new volume but same goes for every manufacturer - old models are not the ones generating new sales.
As to the innovation, it is interesting opinion - what exactly is innovation? If we are talking about innovative vehicles that sell in volume and are not PR pieces, then Toyota is certainly the most innovative car company in the world with their 1.3m hybrid sales in 2014 alone.
09-01-15, 12:43 PM
#14
Lexus Fanatic
I'd say that honor generally belongs to Porsche, though, of course, they are pretty much at the opposite end of the spectrum from Toyota when is comes to actual size and market-share of the manufacturer.
09-01-15, 12:57 PM
#15
Lexus Champion
I agree, some of the newer Toyota are a lot better than the cars that were produced in 05-12. But Toyota historically rode out products for long periods of time, in the current climate, Toyota more than ever has had to work on styling more than other things.
Toyota is the current king of using the same platforms for eons. The same engines as well.
On the other hand, core vehicles such as the Corolla, Camry, Avalon, Prius sure do get upgraded correctly.
Sad to see what is happening to the Sequoia.
The LS460 is on the unthinkable of how many MYs? I still do love the current LS styling and interior.
Toyota is the current king of using the same platforms for eons. The same engines as well.
On the other hand, core vehicles such as the Corolla, Camry, Avalon, Prius sure do get upgraded correctly.
Sad to see what is happening to the Sequoia.
The LS460 is on the unthinkable of how many MYs? I still do love the current LS styling and interior.
