The Myth of " German Engineering ".
#31
Lexus Fanatic
Originally Posted by bitkahuna
Other relatives there all seem to have small fords and love them.
#32
Lexus Champion
iTrader: (2)
A more complicated and/or newer design has higher chance of something going wrong. There's a reason why Lexus had kept certain designs for years and years. A lot of members here complain about old engine designs and not enough power from Lexus/Toyota powertrains but this is the reason for its rock solid reliability. The more innovation is incorporated into a design, the more points of failure you introduce. A wagon with nothing but a couple of axles can be extremely reliable and last forever, is one extreme. A Veyron utilizing the epitome of engineering that needs constant attention and maintenance is another.
'Best built' is finding a good compromise between these extremes. German engineering doesn't necessarily mean best built.
#33
Lexus Fanatic
Both designs have struts which will eventually wear down. It's more the complicated hinge design vs the moet. Isimple nonarticulating gooseneck.
A more complicated and/or newer design has higher chance of something going wrong. There's a reason why Lexus had kept certain designs for years and years. A lot of members here complain about old engine designs and not enough power from Lexus/Toyota powertrains but this is the reason for its rock solid reliability. The more innovation is incorporated into a design, the more points of failure you introduce. A wagon with nothing but a couple of axles can be extremely reliable and last forever, is one extreme. A Veyron utilizing the epitome of engineering that needs constant attention and maintenance is another.
'Best built' is finding a good compromise between these extremes. German engineering doesn't necessarily mean best built.
A more complicated and/or newer design has higher chance of something going wrong. There's a reason why Lexus had kept certain designs for years and years. A lot of members here complain about old engine designs and not enough power from Lexus/Toyota powertrains but this is the reason for its rock solid reliability. The more innovation is incorporated into a design, the more points of failure you introduce. A wagon with nothing but a couple of axles can be extremely reliable and last forever, is one extreme. A Veyron utilizing the epitome of engineering that needs constant attention and maintenance is another.
'Best built' is finding a good compromise between these extremes. German engineering doesn't necessarily mean best built.
#34
^ not quite. When new parts are designed from ground up, esp with new materials, you can only test for what you are aware of based upon the historical data on the old parts using the old material. The new part and material will and always does exhibit unique characteristics that will need to be ironed out during the subsequent years. A classic example is the iron block vs the Al. block.
#35
Lexus Champion
iTrader: (2)
You are full of it. The failure point is sort of true but all of that can be overcome. Toyota reliability is because it is designed to last a certain amount of miles. Any manufacturer can do this. If you ever see true data from the car maker, it will tell you straight up when a part will fail and how long it will take etc etc. It really has nothing to do with a new part vs old part
#36
Lexus Fanatic
#37
Lexus Test Driver
It could be that Toyota engineer their cars and components to last for years under a single owner, whereas most German manufacturers don't aim as high as their cars get swapped every 3 or 4 years. That said, with the number of E-class diesels running around as taxis in Western Europe, I would expect their reliability to be pretty good.
Japanese manufacturers also tend to be very conservative when it comes to adding new tech. It could be because of reliability and cost/warranty concerns. VWs had LED DRLs and brake lights before everyone else... I assume they had the first warranty issues with LEDs too
Japanese manufacturers also tend to be very conservative when it comes to adding new tech. It could be because of reliability and cost/warranty concerns. VWs had LED DRLs and brake lights before everyone else... I assume they had the first warranty issues with LEDs too
#38
Lexus Champion
IMO, the best trunk-hinge design is the articulated scissors-type that avoids the large metal rods and allows the trunk to be raised past vertical. This system, though, not only costs more to design, but is also harder to integrate into power-operated trunk/hatch-lid systems.
Both designs have struts which will eventually wear down. It's more the complicated hinge design vs the more simple nonarticulating gooseneck.
A more complicated and/or newer design has higher chance of something going wrong. There's a reason why Lexus had kept certain designs for years and years. A lot of members here complain about old engine designs and not enough power from Lexus/Toyota powertrains but this is the reason for its rock solid reliability. The more innovation is incorporated into a design, the more points of failure you introduce. A wagon with nothing but a couple of axles can be extremely reliable and last forever, is one extreme. A Veyron utilizing the epitome of engineering that needs constant attention and maintenance is another.
'Best built' is finding a good compromise between these extremes. German engineering doesn't necessarily mean best built.
A more complicated and/or newer design has higher chance of something going wrong. There's a reason why Lexus had kept certain designs for years and years. A lot of members here complain about old engine designs and not enough power from Lexus/Toyota powertrains but this is the reason for its rock solid reliability. The more innovation is incorporated into a design, the more points of failure you introduce. A wagon with nothing but a couple of axles can be extremely reliable and last forever, is one extreme. A Veyron utilizing the epitome of engineering that needs constant attention and maintenance is another.
'Best built' is finding a good compromise between these extremes. German engineering doesn't necessarily mean best built.
Unless our definition of "strut" is different, I do not believe that the traditional gooseneck hinge has a strut; it does have a spring to help pop the trunk lid off the latch, but not a strut. Looking at the good picture of the articulating hinge above, the strut is the rod with the silver-coloured piece extending from the bottom.
And that picture shows just how complicated the design and construction (and therefore more likely to fail) the articulating hinge is. Counting the arms, struts and hinge points:
- There are 2 arms on each side, for a total of 4.
- There is 1 strut on each side, for a total of 2. And struts are known points of failure (just ask Sienna owners about failed tailgate struts): they are filled with oil and have to be properly sealed to prevent oil leaks.
- There is 1 hinge point at the top and bottom of each arm and strut, for a total of 6.
With so many components operating harmoniously together and each arm rotating along different arcs, the engineering design of the articulating spring is complicated. It would not be impossible to design this part on paper, but it would be much, much easier to design with the aid of computer-aided design (CAD) software. This is expensive.
In comparison, the old gooseneck hinge is simplicity itself:
- There are only 2 curved arms, one on each side.
- There are only 2 hinge points, 1 for each arm, up underneath the rear parcel shelf. The other end of the arm is fixed to the trunklid, not another hinge point.
- There is an assist spring but it is a simple twisted metal spring (perhaps as simple as a torsion bar), not an extending strut.
Simplicity brought about from fewer parts and fewer moving parts, brings durability and reliability. The complicated spring can be made more reliable, with the spending of more money to buy more design time, buy higher strength components and buy more testing time.
#39
Lexus Fanatic
It could be that Toyota engineer their cars and components to last for years under a single owner, whereas most German manufacturers don't aim as high as their cars get swapped every 3 or 4 years. That said, with the number of E-class diesels running around as taxis in Western Europe, I would expect their reliability to be pretty good.
Japanese manufacturers also tend to be very conservative when it comes to adding new tech. It could be because of reliability and cost/warranty concerns. VWs had LED DRLs and brake lights before everyone else... I assume they had the first warranty issues with LEDs too
Japanese manufacturers also tend to be very conservative when it comes to adding new tech. It could be because of reliability and cost/warranty concerns. VWs had LED DRLs and brake lights before everyone else... I assume they had the first warranty issues with LEDs too
This is one reason why Japanese-sourced vehicles have traditionally been built so well.....a cultural issue, and a strong work-ethic among the population. Work, in Japan, is considered to be a privilege, not a drudgery that you endure for eight hours a day just to get a paycheck. Workers, even after their own long working days, often get together at night, in their spare time, and discuss ways of improving the plant and work/assembly procedures.
Of course, that doesn't mean that Japanese-engineered vehicles can't also be built well in other countries, too, as the Toyota/Honda plants in the U.S. prove. But, in many cases, those plants are run and overseen by Japanese managers.
Last edited by mmarshall; 05-27-15 at 08:25 PM.
#40
Lexus Test Driver
Maybe, just maybe, Japanese workers take pride in their work and they're rewarded well for their effort, whereas most US companies emphasize the bottom line first, with executive compensation second and worker well-being nowhere. I support unions but a unionised workforce should also make good products, not the old crap that GM and Chrysler used to make. It's interesting that German auto factories have strong worker representation while Toyota is anti-union in its US factories.
#41
Lexus Champion
iTrader: (2)
Unless our definition of "strut" is different, I do not believe that the traditional gooseneck hinge has a strut; it does have a spring to help pop the trunk lid off the latch, but not a strut. Looking at the good picture of the articulating hinge above, the strut is the rod with the silver-coloured piece extending from the bottom.
Last edited by T0ked; 05-28-15 at 07:04 AM.
#42
Lexus Fanatic
whereas most US companies emphasize the bottom line first, with executive compensation second and worker well-being nowhere.
I support unions but a unionised workforce should also make good products, not the old crap that GM and Chrysler used to make.
You can't really compare UAW, people, money-wise, though, to those making really low wages. UAW salaries today are much less than they once were....but still much higher than what we typically see in many other parts of the American economy. Even more the case in Mexico, where the auto plants, though low-paying by U.S. standards, are head-and-shoulders above most of he Mexican economy.
Anyhow, I don't want to get too far off topic....German engineering.
#43
Lexus Test Driver
I agree about UAW plants making much better cars now, it's just that I feel good labor relations and good products go hand in hand. I wouldn't buy a car from a unionized factory just because of the union factor.
Anyway, what about German engineering? German auto factory workers are well trained and paid well, have representation in management, yet some German cars still have reliability issues. It's down to poor engineering and/or interference from bean counters Marketing wants new tech to pull in new customers, engineers have to make it work within a specific timeframe and budget, new buyers enjoy their fancy toys while secondhand buyers are the ones who feel the pain a few years down the line. The days of the bombproof W126 Benz are long gone.
Anyway, what about German engineering? German auto factory workers are well trained and paid well, have representation in management, yet some German cars still have reliability issues. It's down to poor engineering and/or interference from bean counters Marketing wants new tech to pull in new customers, engineers have to make it work within a specific timeframe and budget, new buyers enjoy their fancy toys while secondhand buyers are the ones who feel the pain a few years down the line. The days of the bombproof W126 Benz are long gone.
#44
Lexus Champion
Interesting article, thanks for posting. As an engineer, I'm always interested in different approaches to design solutions.
#45
My uncle was the "second in command" of one of the major American manufacturers' Europe divisions. When my dad asked him which car he should buy back in 2001, a Lexus RX or the comparable American vehicle from my uncle's company, he said, hands down, the Lexus. "The quality and reliability" of the American brands were not there, he said. As he was overseeing the European operations, he also commented that the European brands do not compare to Toyota/Honda from a quality perspective either. His take (not sure how truthful it was, but I figured he would know), is that American and European manufacturers have a much higher acceptable failure rate on a given part....on the order of a factor of ten....compared to the Japanese manufacturers. It is apparently that simple.