LoveCT

Majority of the Lexus owners are happy to drive a gussied up camry/avalon. While branding based on exclusivity is what takes it to the top, Lexus is happy to feed the crowd that will have the Camry/Avalon/Highlander/Prius but with the Lexus badge.

Hey, it will never have a brand clout like Mercedes, BMW, Audi or Porsche, who themselves have moved downmarket recently, but these brands have a painstaking history of time to build themselves as premium brands. But Lexus wants a short cut. Not long from now, it will fight with Hyundai for the poser premium brand title alongside Infiniti and Acura.

Hoovey689

iTrader: (16)

Disagree. In Lexus's 25 short years it has almost caught parity with most models and leads the Tier with reliability, retained value, VDS and hybrid technology. The more established marques had to quickly adapt. Lexus has done more with less

G Star

iTrader: (2)

That was funny.

LexBob2

Makes you wonder how Toyota and the Lexus division survives. LOL.

LoveCT

That's just another way of saying poser premium brand. Getting more out of doing less in the short term is exactly why this statement will not change in the next 250 years.

Also, all the factors you mention above are Toyota's accomplishments. What exactly are Lexus's accomplishments? One car LFA wonder?

Hoovey689

iTrader: (16)

Not really. I use the term 'almost' because they don't have say an LS to match S65 AMG, 760iL etc.. The core stuff though they have. By your argument then Bentley and the Bentley Bentayga SUV are also poser since it's just a gussied up Q7

Plenty of accomplishments. Owned 2000's until 2010 as the best selling luxury make for 11 years, F and F-Sport marques, worlds first 8-speed auto, worlds first V8 AWD Hybrid, 2006 RX400h first luxury hybrid etc..

LoveCT

Those are accomplishments? Now compare these Lexus accomplishments with that of real accomplishments by Audi, BMW, Mercedes, Porsche individually over the years. Lol I don't even want to start naming them, lest I downgrade any of the other brands.

Best selling luxury brand? Where? US? Where's BMW? Is it not the best selling brand like 10 years in a row, followed closely by Merc around the world? Or are you including Toyota sales as well?

Hoovey689

iTrader: (16)

Of course they are

Ok, whatever you say 'love'

And yes, US.

spwolf

indeed.

Only thing that Lexus is really missing is building low volume models that are not successful financially but that magazines can rate highly and few owners can buy... then Lexus fans could easily win forum wars :-).

For instance, slap twin turbo on GS-F, call it GS-FR, price it at $120k with ceramic brakes and 650hp... build a thousand per year to sell and everyone will be happy.

Or do a PHEV with 480hp + 120hp EV for total of 600hp and 25 mile range... price it at $130k and sell 500 per year and everyone will review that car as greatest Lexus ever while masses will buy newly introduced $45k cloth GS200t :-).

RNM GS3

I think Lexus fans fail to realize that Lexus is only popular in the US - it is not a brand that is well respected around the world.

Even in the US, it has lost market share and its #1 ranking to MB and BMW.
They also now have to deal with Audi, Porsche and even Cadillac and Jaguar which all have some great products - these brands were not even serious competitors 10 yrs ago.

As China continues to overtake the US - this would mean even worse results for Lexus as they are well behind the Germans in popularity. Japanese brands are know for safe, boring, reliable. Lexus is really the only successful Japanese luxury car brand. If Acura and Infiniti did their part, it would help change the stigma that Japanese cars are not true luxury.

The new LS is a make or brake car for Lexus imo. It can propel them back to world class or it can make the brand even more irrelevant.
Right now they are in no mans land with really confusing brand identity.
All commercials i see are about Fsport and Performance but their bread and butter are RX and ES which are neither.

mmarshall

Exactly. Sales are down because the company is (now) trying to rely on a sporting or semi-sporting image when that is not what built and perfected the company in the first place, and was not the area that Lexus traditionally excelled in. The company needs to remember what built it, who buys the lion's share of their products, and what they succeeded in. Otherwise, with some exceptions (the more traditional Lexus products and maybe the NX) they are going keep losing sales by trying to imitate the Germans.

I'm not saying that Lexus can't design and build some sport-oriented models...there is indeed a market for them, and Lexus would be foolish not to try and cash in on at least some of that market. But one thing that both the past and present have clearly taught is that Lexus is best at being Lexus (i.e. cushy, quiet, comfortable, and refined)......and not trying to be BMW. And, conversely, speaking of BMW, look at what has happened to THEM in the last few years, since THEY started drifting away from what THEY did best.....producing superbly-engineered, chassis-sensitive, tactile-feel, driver-centered cars. They, in effect, tried to become Lexus......and it didn't work for them, either.

MattyG

Exactly. +1.

When Lexus started drifting away from its original mission, it lost out in "headline" comparisons. That first LS was an amazing achievement because it upset the Germans.

But ABM (Audi, BMW, Mercedes) retaliated pretty quickly with leading edge (and unreliable) technologies but more important... styling that celebrities and car culture types were easily drawn to.

It seems ridiculous to value a car for its bling or styling, but that's exactly what the Germans have done over the past 50 years. That and their racing heritage and pedigree.

These comparisons are about outrageous spending on vehicles with horrible repair and reliability records. That's all those owners are projecting: "see I can afford absurd costs to own a ridiculous car that spends a lot of its time being fixed."

All Lexus did was fill a niche and try to extend it to some of its Toyota lineup. Lexus doesn't mind you buying that Camry if you want to pay the extra dough for the "L" badge. Great for soccer moms and upmarket aspiring types.

And now the Koreans are into the same game as the Japanese 25 years ago.

A Canuck writer recently wrote, you can have an E class six cylinder Merc or you can have a Hyundai Genesis V8 that is much better. But of course, the Hyundai is not going to get any respect.

Would you be seen in a Hyundai at the polo club, or do want to arrive in a Merc?

SW17LS

LOL! This is ridiculous. Even without any LS sales, Lexus is the alternating #2/#3 luxury automaker in the US. How is that irrelevant by any stretch of the imagination?!?

G Star

iTrader: (2)

I sincerely don't think reason will work with him.

End of the day, top 3 is currently mb/lexus/bmw in any given order. Anybody who is comparing Lexus with hyundai obviously has an agenda and not debating within reason.

mmarshall

True, Lexus does not produce any American-market products in the price-range of Hyundai's lower-priced vehicles. I agree that one talking within reason certainly cannot argue with that. (The CT, of course, is small, but in a much higher price-bracket than comparably-sized Hyundais).

But, have you driven some of Hyundai and Kia's recently-introduced high-line, upmarket products? IMO, I found the Cadenza, K900, and the new 2Gen Genesis to be very impressive, especially the new 5.0L Genesis. If you get a chance, take a 5.0L Genesis out for a spin....I can virtually guarantee you that you won't be disappointed. The new Genesis alone, even outside of Hyundai's other products, proves that this is not the Hyundai of the 1990s.