LoveCT

It's all about selling the brand by doing nothing but slapping chrome, leather and some sponge on a mass market model. Hard to imagine but Acura until recently was selling a chromed and leathered Civic to Canadians by the name EL and CSX. Of course now you have ILX which is chromed and lathered Euro spec'd Civic.
We Lexus owners are a bit superficial and a bit brand slave in that way and luxury brands exploit it for their benefit. Exclusivity of a luxury brand doesn't really exist when the parent company is a mass market automobile manufacturer. Sad but true

rxonmymind

Something not addressed is the lack of tunability of the Lexus. Perhaps that's not significant when choosing a vehicle but people DO like to personalize their vehicles to make their own unique statements.
BMW aftermarket parts for tuning is huge as well as Mercedes. Lexus? Change the tires, go VIP, and...well that's it. OK maybe not that little but you get the gist.

mmarshall

Regardless of whether people like it or not, it's getting harder to do that as cars get more and more complex. Plus, in many cases (depending on exactly what is done), it voids or restricts the warranty, and, if different computer-chips are used in the engine-control units as some do, it can cause an emissions failure in states and jurisdictions where EPA-mandated tests are required.

rominl

iTrader: (4)

i simply don't see how you proved the CT was a success (and i am not saying it's not, i like the car) with your reference, when it's pointless.

and with the way you mix between member posting vs moderator posting, there goes your next serious misconception. having a moderator badge under my name doesn't make every single post by me superior. i only post as a moderator when there is a situation to handle. otherwise i am just a member, and i am posting as a member. if you can't distinguish between those then i can't help. so the short answer to your question is, yes you have other options. you can continue to believe what you want to believe which i am perfectly fine too.

i am so glad you found an exception to my clause, i am just also glad that i said "pretty much all makes and models" instead of "every single make and model". there are some cars that given their historical heritage or other reasons that their sales numbers just never "fail". personally i call the 3 series one of them. i can name a few others if you want. and personally i don't think it's a fair game to say the IS should track the 3 series. given that logic lexus has failed so badly coz' the IS and GS hardly ever came close to touching the 3 and 5. but i don't think any less of lexus given their huge success in ES and RX and overall popularity.

i stated clearly that i am not disagreeing with your context, i personally just don't feel how the LFA can make a difference in more people getting the ES. it together with more F cars (not just by itself and rcf) can eventually help boost the brand perception in sport, that i agree. but i simply do not believe that we are seeing the effect of that now already.

my point was very simple that i saw an argument that doesn't hold place at all that i had to point it out

LoveCT

Agree 100‰. Aftermarket custom tunings is a very important aspect of sports themed cars, now that Lexus is moving there. Lexus has two things going against it. 1. Volume. Lexus just doesn't sell enough cars of one model so as to justify the after market manufactures investing in design and mould parts for it. I have seen some Japanese after market manufacturers do it for those cars built in Japan but with a huge cost. 2. Traditional Lexus owners. Many times you notice someone personalise a Lexus beyond a tint job, and posting in a forum, traditional Lexus owners will deride it suggesting it is not a civc. It will take some time to shake that. You want your sport themed vehicle to succeed? Feed the aftermarket. Invest big in SEMA and the like. A sport themed car is akin to a smartphone ecosystem. Don't have third party apps means no one is interested. Yes, that means a section of Lexus core audience will be uncomfortable and eventually leave the brand, but that's a decision Lexus has to make if it's moving toward a sports car brand.

SW17LS

I want to touch on this...because its just absolutely not correct.

There is a difference between firmness and refinement. The issue with the CT, is it is a very coarse, unrefined car. Its coarse and unrefined in the way our old Prius was, and nobody would accuse the Prius of being sporty.

High end sport cars and sport sedans are NOT unrefined. Drive any iteration of the BMW 3 Series, a car that most would argue is the benchmark for a sport sedan, they are firm, and hard...but never coarse or unrefined. Anybody who thinks a "noisy, stiff and unrefined" ride is a "sporty" ride, has simply never driven premium sport vehicles. Period.

If you want an example of a well done FWD hatchback vehicle I would point you to my favorite, the Mazda 3 5 Door. Thats a car that is firm, sporty yet still quite refined. I'd buy one over a CT any day of the week.

Have you ever read a thread on CL? The majority of people here modify their cars. Those of us who don't are the minority, not the majority.

Mr Bond

There is no way that we have driven the same kind of CT200h I have my CT for 3 years now and its more quiet and refined than my 2 gen IS 250 was ( road and wind noise ) and actually way too soft for any kind of sporty driving, its more like a ship that lurches a lot during a storm when driven on a twisty road over 60 mph. Or do you maybe get a completely different chassi setup in US ? Because what you describe here is so far away from the car I drive day it could possibly be.

LoveCT

CT is stiff? Not for me. Noisy? Yes. It rides on a four banger on an Atkinson cycle with 87 octane recommended. Does any other Lexus engine do that? The question is what do you expect out of a 30k hybrid? Should it match the "premium level refinement" of a +20k GS (non hybrid) or + 30k GS (hybrid)? Which by the way a significant fraction of the crowd will claim not as refined as the Bimmer? Yes, I liked the Mazda 3 sport and even the A3 as well. The rust issues on the late and previous years' Mazda kept me back and on the Audi, it was the end year of the hatchback model, plus less reliability and the upscale cost of parts. Unlike you, I drive my cars to the ground, and 10-15 years is my norm. If I did not mention the fiscally responsible way to spend my money, I am sorry. So why did you not buy your benchmark BMW 3 or 5 series and settled with a GS? Look, I don't need an answer, but I am trying to say personal attacks are unnecessary.

I will once again ignore the personal attack and say that the level of modifications that I'm saying is about creating a Lexus nation of enthusiasts. Cliche as it might be, I'm talking similar to Bimmer and Civic nation. I'm talking going beyond a simple drop, or VIP and towards a wide body kit as a start, ECU, supercharger, turbos, carbon fibers plus the cosmetics. Unfortunately, they are not as many toys for Lexus as the other makes, although the "sporty" IS has been there for sometime. And it likely is because of the demand for the Lexus mods and supply. No?

So, to answer, yes I have read more than one thread on CL. And like any forum, a lot of talk will be on modifications, no question, as experience and learning from mistakes is a big reason for the success of any forum. But I'm talking community pride on personalized cars. Lexus is not even close. See, I like modified cars, like small cosmetic modifications. Yes, you have lot more posts than mine, but not many I guess on mods. But to say, majority of people on CL and by perhaps an extension, a significant portion of Lexus owners modify their cars will be a stretch, no? And about the derision I mentioned about modified cars, I ask you to look closely to many commentators on modifications. And there are other Lexus vehicle specific forums where you also see the derision. Nothing personal, beyond personal observation. Bear in mind I'm saying the mod hunger will increase as Lexus moves towards sport vehicles. And Lexus will also have to address that by feeding the aftermarket in order to keep the sport vehicle tradition thriving. Which, in turn, may negatively impact the traditional Lexus crowd. It's all about the nuance of demographics.

By the way, thanks for your earlier post on the difference between space utilization of a QX 60 vs the Kia Sedona. Your post plus the Car and Driver minivan comparo made us decide on the Sienna Limited Premium, and move over from the QX60. Still waiting for the van to delivered as it seems the color choice isn't available. But I know what it misses over a pie in the sky Lexus 7 seater. Dual exhaust, LED lights and a spindle grill. I'll live with it. Can't wait for 15 more years when my kid gets the license to drive the swagger wagon.

mmarshall

In several ways, the CT and Mazda3 hatchback even look alike. That was something I pointed out in my CT review several years ago.



That's true....a lot of people DO modify....though I'm not sure it's a majority. Still, one has to be careful with mods...if not done right, it can cause problems, and even void the warranty. I've lost track of the count of the number of threads we've had from CL members complaining about wheel, tire, brake, suspension, and steering problems from chassis-mods.

LoveCT

I'll hazard to say we get the exact same chassis as you do. Europe and its hatches are something that I have always looked up with a lot of jealousy. I like how in some ways CT reminds me of that confidence on twisty roads that are so prevalent there but very few here. In other Lexus cars, calm cabin sure but I like the more engagement with the road that CT gives for the money. Planted on the road feel is how I would describe it.

I have always had to justify the money and horsepower in-equation for the CT over other brands. CT is for sure not a car for the North Americans. As for the other non CT Lexus owners, it's as if their brand (ego) value has diminished by Lexus moving downscale and providing a lower entry point to its brand via the hybrid. It's but quite natural

SW17LS

The CT was the only Lexus I have ever driven that I truly hated. Other Lexus cars I may not buy, for instance I wouldn't buy an IS, but the CT drove exactly like my wife's 04 Prius. Could not wait to give the loaner back.

Does any other Lexus engine do what? Run on regular fuel? Yes the 3.5 V6 in the FWD cars runs on regular fuel.

My issue with the CT is it should be a Toyota or a Scion, not a Lexus. A Lexus needs to have a certain amount of poise and refinement, and IMHO the CT just doesn't have it. Nobody is expecting it to be as refined as a GS, but it should be more refined than it is by a wide margin.

As for the GS not being as refined as the BMW, thats just not the case. Drove them all in 2012, and just did again.

Nobody is attacking you. We're having a frank discussion of these cars. I realize you like the car, but you've posted your opinion and we are allowed to post our opinions in a respectful manner as well.

FWIW, I didn't settle for the GS. I chose the GS because it was the better car compared to the 5 series and a better value. As should be clear since I just upgraded from the GS to the LS, I am more than capable of buying a 5 series.

No problem, glad you found it helpful.

I don't have an issue at all with Lexus building lower priced cars. I think the CT is a good idea in concept, I just think the execution is quite poor compared to what they could have accomplished.

Toys4RJill

I would agree. I had a CT and I absolutely hated it. There is no way it should been branded as a Lexus model.

spwolf

it is just not true... as simple as that... I believe in the UK, CT200h got award for being quietest vehicle in the class (and plenty members from A3, 1 to A class).

I think difference is that some US drivers just mash the pedal and expect V8 in everything... afterall roads are big and mostly empty. Unlike in Europe, where we have 4cly diesels in 5 series and nobody finds it weird.

mmarshall

Well, yes, it's going to have very low powertrain noise when it is running on pure-electrics....that's a given. But, on anything but a glass-smooth road surface, without the anti-skid porous-texture, the CT, by Lexus standards, has high road and wind noise....and a rather choppy ride from the short wheelbase and lack of suspension travel. Jill is probably correct when she says that it should not have been marketed as a Lexus.....I felt more or less the same way after my CT review.

SW17LS

Quietest in class, maybe. I haven't driven an A3, 1 Series, A Class, etc. I found nothing about the vehicle refined or quiet.

It drives like an economy car, which is fine for a Toyota...not for a Lexus.