TangoRed

Actually, the W140 didn't copy Lexus at all. You should know that with design freezes that the S-class design was already completed by the time the LS hit the streets; it was done in 1987 as a matter of fact. The W140 was actually supposed to have come out in 1989 but was subject to large delays due to budget overruns.

You're kidding yourself if you think the LS400 didn't have design inspiration from its biggest competitor. But aside from that, the LS400 was an incredible car that has a permanent spot in history. No need to quibble over the somewhat derivative styling.

spwolf

CT200h is very good seller for Lexus though, why would it leave bad taste in his mouth? He is talking about cars starting below $30k.

Honestly, CLA and A3 Sedan look soo cheap now, year after introduction. I have no idea why people dont just get A4 and C class.

TangoRed

I don't think the CLA or A3 look cheap at all from the outside. And now that the CLA starts at $31,500, the A3 is the cheapest at $29,900.

Lexus has just been flying under the radar with the relatively cheap CT200h in terms of its low price after the disaster that was the HS250h.

MattyG

Well Tangored beat me to it but as he said, flagships are designed years ahead of their introduction. Eichi Toyoda had years to study his benchmark before the LS's intro in 1989.

While Lexus was taking several well deserved victory laps in the years after the LS400, MB was already busy working on the beautifully styled W220 which knocked the squared of LS style into the weeds when it debuted in 1998.

If you want an even more obvious example take a look at the side profile and rear taillights of the 1997 E class and then do the same for the 2001 LS430. Something looking familiar there?

I beg to differ with you though on the W140 and the LS. The big Merc is way more squared off and "tank-like" compared to the 400. Two really different styles to me.

Fizzboy7

I don't know what the hard numbers are, but it's been well-known in the industry the CT has not lived up to expectations. Better than the HS though.

The A3 and CLA both offer cut-rate leases that easily beat out A4 and C class offerings. Money talks here. The CT offers the same price advantage, but I'm sticking to the "US customers do not care for luxury hatchbacks" as the main reason more sales are not achieved. The CT needs to be a sedan. Mercedes and BMW already learned the same hard lesson in the 90's.

And now that someone has mentioned it, there's no excuse for not bringing out the RC and TX at the same time. With all the healthy profits Toyota/Lexus enjoys, the stinginess is almost as bad as Honda's color offerings and option packages.

Hoovey689

iTrader: (16)

I believe a CT derived variant is on the way but I don't see them using the CT moniker. It's going to have to be a (?)S to maintain Lexus nomenclature

LoveCT

Quite the opposite of what your thoughts are on the CT actually. http://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lexus_CT Jump to the sales section, where it says CT is the second best seller for Lexus after the RX.

I for one am proud that Lexus chose a pure hatchback hybrid for this car. That the US is an epitome of wasted space doesn't mean all cars coming to US will have to follow suit. How is a CT sedan is not an HS?
Anyways the discussion has digressed from the original topic for quite a while now. Lexus can go ahead and decide what it does when. The market will decide ultimately what sticks. The current market has spoken that bigger luxury CUVs have the biggest growing demand. Almost all luxury makes are moving toward it for a piece of that pie. Lexus will continue to not provide a vehicle in that category at its own peril.

rominl

iTrader: (4)

you wouldn't expect lexus to sell more gs450h (70k) or ls600hl (120k) than the ct right? that statement on CT sales being second best in lexus in hybrid, that's quite a meaningless statement

DaveGS4

iTrader: (2)

Sorry but that's not even remotely correct

http://corporatenews.pressroom.toyot...chart.download

EDIT - I now see the wiki link talks about second best HYBRID, not second best selling Lexus. That makes more sense but suspect RX, NX, possibly ES might give a run.

LoveCT

So, should you compare it with non hybrids? Do it then and drop the base price by another 6,000 dollars, which is usually the price difference of hybrid vs non hybrids for most models. Would we then compare the CT sales in that hypothetical scenario?

By the way, this was an answer to a raised point, whereas Lentz points that he's generally satisfied with CT's conquests. If we're questioning the first principles for all models under the Lexus umbrella then a whole whack of them need to be overhauled or scrapped.

And the US only consideration for hybrids is moot as almost none of them are built outside Japan and is exported around the world.

By the way there's a good chance that RC sales will tank in two years led by the F. A three row CUV sales would still be going strong then. Lentz knows this better than a lot of us. That Lexus is putting all its coins to transform its entire line to sport look moving away from its traditional "pursuit of perfection" is both laughable and worrisome. Lentz is concerned there as well.

As a young entrant to Lexus, I knew what its core value was. This foray to everything sport has me thinking what's wrong with BMW and Mercedes, as Lexus is not even close to as sporty vehicles as these other makes. At least the others have the DNA. Plus everyone in my friends and family who's seen or tried the new Lexus launches laments the lack of fit and finish of the interior trim that the previous years model used to show especially in the dash, console area.

And the notion that a halo vehicle is needed to improve sales is highly questionable. IS 250/350 sold more at the launch in 2005 than the second gen in 2014 http://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lexus_IS Why? There was no RC or LFA back then. Or are you saying this gen IS would not even sold as much if it was not for the LFA or the RC? What halo model helped the RX sales? Look, no matter how you put it, people are not that gullible to be tricked into a lower model because you show a 500k car. Not at least in today's information age. What LFA'esque halo car does the BMW have that makes it become the top seller of luxury cars?

mmarshall

I totally agree. You raise some good points. A good vehicle will sell itself, halo or no halo car. Now, it's true that, for years, in racing, there was an old saying......."Win on Sunday, sell on Monday". But those are not true halo cars, but specially-prepared racing cars that are neither street-legal nor available to the public.

chikoo

If you want cheaper, go with Toyota or Scion offerings. That is the thinking.

spwolf

In what industry is that? Not car industry for sure. CTh has been best selling luxury hatchback while competition still had luxury hatchbacks on sale in the USA (A3 hatch and BMW)... and it has been selling well worldwide.

mmarshall

Outside of a typically nice Lexus paint job and the superb NuLuxe upholstery (which is arguably the best leather-imitation I've ever seen), the CT, both inside and out, does not strike me as much of a "luxury" hatchback. It suffers from road noise, a fairly stiff ride, so-so dash and panel trim, and a general lack of refinement. In my opinion, it is more of a Toyota than a Lexus....though there is no question that it has sold well under the Lexus nameplate.

LoveCT

All qualitative terms. The lack of refinements, noisy and stiff ride you mention is what the outside world calls sporty. Your refinements are basically insulating outside world and deliberately making vague drive and road feel. ES and RX are epitome of that and so are other traditional Lexii models. I'd hazard that you wouldn't like the NX or RC-F either. CT was the first foray by Lexus in trying to shake that image in mass production vehicles and providing an upscale Prius that looked sporty and had much better suspension. By the way, Avalon and ES should have exchanged places as Avalon has better luxury and proper stitches compared to ES's injection moulding cover with machine faux stitching. No? The 2015 updated Toyota Sienna in Limited premium trim approaches Lexus quality. Look the difference is confusing at times.

You basically are the traditional Lexus clientèle that Lexus is trying to alienate in going forward and I don't necessarily like that. Neither does Lentz.