Originally Posted by mmarshall

Outside of a typically nice Lexus paint job and the superb NuLuxe upholstery (which is arguably the best leather-imitation I've ever seen), the CT, both inside and out, does not strike me as much of a "luxury" hatchback. It suffers from road noise, a fairly stiff ride, so-so dash and panel trim, and a general lack of refinement. In my opinion, it is more of a Toyota than a Lexus....though there is no question that it has sold well under the Lexus nameplate.

Originally Posted by LoveCT

All qualitative terms. The lack of refinements, noisy and stiff ride you mention is what the outside world calls sporty. Your refinements are basically insulating outside world and deliberately making vague drive and road feel. ES and RX are epitome of that and so are other traditional Lexii models. I'd hazard that you wouldn't like the NX or RC-F either. CT was the first foray by Lexus in trying to shake that image in mass production vehicles and providing an upscale Prius that looked sporty and had much better suspension. By the way, Avalon and ES should have exchanged places as Avalon has better luxury and proper stitches compared to ES's injection moulding cover with machine faux stitching. No? The 2015 updated Toyota Sienna in Limited premium trim approaches Lexus quality. Look the difference is confusing at times.

You basically are the traditional Lexus clientèle that Lexus is trying to alienate in going forward and I don't necessarily like that. Neither does Lentz.

Originally Posted by LexsCTJill

I disagree with you. The Avalon and the ES should not switch places, the Avalon is a nice car but it is still truly not a luxury car. Its a premium car.

Originally Posted by LexsCTJill

The reason why the Avalon is not a luxury car is that the sum of all of the parts still do not come together as luxuriously as the ES.

I was critical of the ES at first but having spent a lot of time with both it is clear.

The Avalon is a nice premium car, the ES is a nice luxurious car.

Originally Posted by LoveCT

I bet everyone including Lentz is having a tough time defining the Lexus brand as it shifts its direction.

Originally Posted by LexsCTJill

As for the CT, I thought it was a terrible car. I would give it 1 star out of 5 if I were to rate it. For the price paid, the interior was cheap, 134hp was on the low end (funny enough the Corolla ECO) has more power and similar fuel efficiency in a better package for a lot less. I think the Corolla also comes with the same fake leather as the CT.

Originally Posted by LoveCT

Talking about power, I can cite numerous other makes with better power and package and a halo image to boot for a lot less than the ES.

Originally Posted by LoveCT

Quite understandable from an ES enthusiast. Did you know CT also came in the same actual leather as your ES?.

Originally Posted by LoveCT

So, should you compare it with non hybrids? Do it then and drop the base price by another 6,000 dollars, which is usually the price difference of hybrid vs non hybrids for most models. Would we then compare the CT sales in that hypothetical scenario?

By the way, this was an answer to a raised point, whereas Lentz points that he's generally satisfied with CT's conquests. If we're questioning the first principles for all models under the Lexus umbrella then a whole whack of them need to be overhauled or scrapped.

And the US only consideration for hybrids is moot as almost none of them are built outside Japan and is exported around the world.

By the way there's a good chance that RC sales will tank in two years led by the F. A three row CUV sales would still be going strong then. Lentz knows this better than a lot of us. That Lexus is putting all its coins to transform its entire line to sport look moving away from its traditional "pursuit of perfection" is both laughable and worrisome. Lentz is concerned there as well.

As a young entrant to Lexus, I knew what its core value was. This foray to everything sport has me thinking what's wrong with BMW and Mercedes, as Lexus is not even close to as sporty vehicles as these other makes. At least the others have the DNA. Plus everyone in my friends and family who's seen or tried the new Lexus launches laments the lack of fit and finish of the interior trim that the previous years model used to show especially in the dash, console area.

And the notion that a halo vehicle is needed to improve sales is highly questionable. IS 250/350 sold more at the launch in 2005 than the second gen in 2014 http://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lexus_IS Why? There was no RC or LFA back then. Or are you saying this gen IS would not even sold as much if it was not for the LFA or the RC? What halo model helped the RX sales? Look, no matter how you put it, people are not that gullible to be tricked into a lower model because you show a 500k car. Not at least in today's information age. What LFA'esque halo car does the BMW have that makes it become the top seller of luxury cars?

Originally Posted by LoveCT

Right! Very nicely described. Funny, I spent a lot of time in both but I felt the opposite. The brand perhaps carries a higher weight for you than me.

While you enjoy your bubble, Lexus is moving away from your nice luxurious cars, are you noticing? Let's get back to topic and understand why Lentz is worried and regretting such rapid shift by Lexus. I bet everyone including Lentz is having a tough time defining the Lexus brand as it shifts its direction. It is as I put it challenging the Germans in their game and not being as convincing as the Germans.

Originally Posted by rominl

1) there shouldn't be a comparison, period. i never said the CT sales should have been compared to non hybrids. i never said how the comparison should be done. i purely said the statement in wiki is pointless and stupid and you quoting on it literally brought nothing to the table

2) since you said you are young so i think that might explain your off base statement regarding the IS. first of all 2006 IS was second generation, 2014 IS is third generation. secondly, if you purely just look at the sales numbers 8-9 years apart to draw a simple conclusion then you can't be more wrong. have you considered the economy between the two time period? did you know that back in 04-06 it was the huge economy boom where pretty much all makes and models, including flagships like s class, saw huge increase in sales?

to be fair, i actually agree that i personally don't believe that showing a halo car like LFA would have drastic direct effect on sales of regular models. i just don't see how they would sell more ES and RX with the LFA on the show floor. it might have effect on cars like RC and maybe IS but i am still unsure.