Car Chat General discussion about Lexus, other auto manufacturers and automotive news.

We Can’t Let John Deere Destroy the Very Idea of Ownership

Thread Tools
 
Search this Thread
 
Old 04-21-15, 12:07 PM
  #1  
doge
Formerly Bad Co
Thread Starter
 
doge's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2013
Location: Chicago
Posts: 1,041
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes on 0 Posts
Default We Can’t Let John Deere Destroy the Very Idea of Ownership


IT’S OFFICIAL: JOHN Deere and General Motors want to eviscerate the notion of ownership. Sure, we pay for their vehicles. But we don’t own them. Not according to their corporate lawyers, anyway.

In a particularly spectacular display of corporate delusion, John Deere—the world’s largest agricultural machinery maker —told the Copyright Office that farmers don’t own their tractors. Because computer code snakes through the DNA of modern tractors, farmers receive “an implied license for the life of the vehicle to operate the vehicle.”

It’s John Deere’s tractor, folks. You’re just driving it.

Several manufacturers recently submitted similar comments to the Copyright Office under an inquiry into the Digital Millennium Copyright Act. DMCA is a vast 1998 copyright law that (among other things) governs the blurry line between software and hardware. The Copyright Office, after reading the comments and holding a hearing, will decide in July which high-tech devices we can modify, hack, and repair—and decide whether John Deere’s twisted vision of ownership will become a reality.

Over the last two decades, manufacturers have used the DMCA to argue that consumers do not own the software underpinning the products they buy—things like smartphones, computers, coffeemakers, cars, and, yes, even tractors. So, Old MacDonald has a tractor, but he owns a massive barn ornament, because the manufacturer holds the rights to the programming that makes it run.

(This is an important issue for farmers: a neighbor, Kerry Adams, hasn’t been able to fix an expensive transplanter because he doesn’t have access to the diagnostic software he needs. He’s not alone: many farmers are opting for older, computer-free equipment.)

In recent years, some companies have even leveraged the DMCA to stop owners from modifying the programming on those products. This means you can’t strip DRM off smart kitty litter boxes, install custom software on your iPad, or alter the calibration on a tractor’s engine. Not without potentially running afoul of the DMCA.

What does any of that have to do with copyright? Owners, tinkerers, and homebrew “hackers” must copy programming so they can modify it. Product makers don’t like people messing with their stuff, so some manufacturers place digital locks over software. Breaking the lock, making the copy, and changing something could be construed as a violation of copyright law.

And that’s how manufacturers turn tinkerers into “pirates”—even if said “pirates” aren’t circulating illegal copies of anything. Makes sense, right? Yeah, not to me either.

It makes sense to John Deere: The company argues that allowing people to alter the software—even for the purpose of repair—would “make it possible for pirates, third-party developers, and less innovative competitors to free-ride off the creativity, unique expression and ingenuity of vehicle software.” The pièce de résistance in John Deere’s argument: permitting owners to root around in a tractor’s programming might lead to pirating music through a vehicle’s entertainment system. Because copyright-marauding farmers are very busy and need to multitask by simultaneously copying Taylor Swift’s 1989 and harvesting corn? (I’m guessing, because John Deere’s lawyers never explained why anyone would pirate music on a tractor, only that it could happen.)

John Deere may be out of touch, but it’s not alone. Other corporations, including trade groups representing nearly every major automaker, made the same case to the Copyright Office again and again. It’s worth noting Tesla Motors didn’t join automakers in this argument, even though its cars rely heavily on proprietary software.

General Motors told the Copyright Office that proponents of copyright reform mistakenly “conflate ownership of a vehicle with ownership of the underlying computer software in a vehicle.” But I’d bet most Americans make the same conflation—and Joe Sixpack might be surprised to learn GM owns a giant chunk of the Chevy sitting in his driveway.

Other automakers pointed out that owners who make unsanctioned modifications could alter their vehicles in bad ways. They could tweak them to go faster. Or change engine parameters to run afoul of emissions regulations.

They’re right. That could happen. But those activities are (1) already illegal, and (2) have nothing to do with copyright. If you’re going too fast, a cop should stop you—copyright law shouldn’t. If you’re dodging emissions regulations, you should pay EPA fines—not DMCA fines. And the specter of someone doing something illegal shouldn’t justify shutting down all the reasonable and legal modifications people can make to the things they paid for.

GM went so far as to argue locking people out helps innovation. That’s like saying locking up books will inspire kids to be innovative writers, because they won’t be tempted to copy passages from a Hemingway novel. Meanwhile, outside of Bizarroland, actual technology experts—including the Electronic Frontier Foundation—have consistently labeled the DMCA an innovation killer. They insist that, rather than stopping content pirates, language in the DMCA has been used to stifle competition and expand corporate control over the life (and afterlife) of products.

“The bad part is, my sense is, these companies are just locking up this technology, and increasing the sort of monopoly pricing structure that just doesn’t work for us,” Brian Talley, a farmer on California’s central coast, says of restrictions placed on his equipment. I toured his farm with a fellow from the Intellectual Property & Technology Law Clinic so we could tell the Copyright Office how manufacturers are hampering farmers. “We are used to operating independently, and that’s one of the great things about being a farmer. And in this particular space, they are really taking that away from us.”

The Electronic Frontier Foundation, the Intellectual Property & Technology Law Clinic, and the Digital Right to Repair Coalition (Disclaimer: I’m a founding member of the Coalition.) are fighting to preserve the notion of ownership. We’re trying to open the floodgates of information. To let owners investigate the code in their devices. To modify them for better functionality. To repair them, even without the blessing of manufacturer.

Thankfully, we aren’t alone. There’s a backlash against the slow creep of corporate product control.

Earlier this year, consumers sent 40,000 comments to the Copyright Office—all of them urging the restoration of ownership rights. The year before, consumers and activists forced a law through Congress that made it legal to unlock a cellphone and move it to a different carrier.

This week, Senator Ron Wyden and Representative Jared Polis will introduce the “Breaking Down Barriers to Innovation Act of 2015, which would substantially improve the DMCA process. Lawmakers in Minnesota and New York have introduced “Fair Repair” legislation that assert an owner’s right to repair electronic equipment they’ve purchased. They want equal access to repair information, replacement parts, and security updates.

Of course, taking back the stuff that we own won’t be easy. Corporations have better lobbyists than the rest of us. And, somehow, the notion of actually owning the things you buy has become revolutionary.

It doesn’t have to be. Tell the Copyright Office to side with consumers when it decides which gadgets are legal to modify and repair. Urge lawmakers to support legislation like the Unlocking Technology Act and the Your Own Devices Act, because we deserve the keys to our own products. And support Fair Repair legislation.

If you bought it, you should own it—simple as that. It’s time corporate lawyers left the bull**** to the farmers, who actually need it.


The Electronic Frontier Foundation, the Intellectual Property & Technology Law Clinic, and the Digital Right to Repair Coalition (Disclaimer: I’m a founding member of the Coalition.) are fighting to preserve the notion of ownership. We’re trying to open the floodgates of information. To let owners investigate the code in their devices. To modify them for better functionality. To repair them, even without the blessing of manufacturer.

Thankfully, we aren’t alone. There’s a backlash against the slow creep of corporate product control.

Earlier this year, consumers sent 40,000 comments to the Copyright Office—all of them urging the restoration of ownership rights. The year before, consumers and activists forced a law through Congress that made it legal to unlock a cellphone and move it to a different carrier.

This week, Senator Ron Wyden and Representative Jared Polis will introduce the “Breaking Down Barriers to Innovation Act of 2015, which would substantially improve the DMCA process. Lawmakers in Minnesota and New York have introduced “Fair Repair” legislation that assert an owner’s right to repair electronic equipment they’ve purchased. They want equal access to repair information, replacement parts, and security updates.

Of course, taking back the stuff that we own won’t be easy. Corporations have better lobbyists than the rest of us. And, somehow, the notion of actually owning the things you buy has become revolutionary.

It doesn’t have to be. Tell the Copyright Office to side with consumers when it decides which gadgets are legal to modify and repair. Urge lawmakers to support legislation like the Unlocking Technology Act and the Your Own Devices Act, because we deserve the keys to our own products. And support Fair Repair legislation.

If you bought it, you should own it—simple as that. It’s time corporate lawyers left the bull**** to the farmers, who actually need it.

http://www.wired.com/2015/04/dmca-ownership-john-deere/

They don't want third parties modifying software because then they couldn't charge $3500 for a whole new hardware system when the only upgrade is a minuscule software change.

I posted this here because of the GM connection

Last edited by doge; 04-21-15 at 12:11 PM.
doge is offline  
Old 04-21-15, 12:25 PM
  #2  
4TehNguyen
Lexus Fanatic
iTrader: (1)
 
4TehNguyen's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2006
Location: Houston, Texas
Posts: 26,033
Received 51 Likes on 46 Posts
Default

apple lost this suit a while back trying to claim copyright when people jailbreak their phone
4TehNguyen is offline  
Old 04-21-15, 01:27 PM
  #3  
Aron9000
Lexus Champion
 
Aron9000's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2012
Location: TN
Posts: 4,592
Received 28 Likes on 27 Posts
Default

^ That kind of blows me away that GM would support this bull****. GM has made BILLIONS of dollars on their late model V8 Corvettes, pickups, Camaros, etc because the computer code was deliberately easy to modify. The computer being easy to modify has led to a multi-billion dollar aftermarket parts business for the LS series V8's, not to mention the demand for crate motors that GM sells directly to the consumer.
Aron9000 is offline  
Old 04-21-15, 01:39 PM
  #4  
bitkahuna
Lexus Fanatic
iTrader: (20)
 
bitkahuna's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2001
Location: Present
Posts: 73,746
Received 2,126 Likes on 1,378 Posts
Default

Originally Posted by doge
They don't want third parties modifying software because then they couldn't charge $3500 for a whole new hardware system when the only upgrade is a minuscule software change.
how is this any different than why toyota/lexus has encrypted its ECUs which NO ONE has cracked?

Originally Posted by 4TehNguyen
apple lost this suit a while back trying to claim copyright when people jailbreak their phone
it really doesn't matter that they lost, because in time the cloud-device (including cars) connection will be so complex that it can't be broken (except for malicious intent).

resistance is futile.

back to the john deer story. 99% of people don't own their phones since they're on a 2 year contract to pay for it. it may be "theirs" after, at which point it's pretty worthless.

while you can still listen to AM/FM, watch 'broadcast' (OTA) tv where possible, how much longer will they exist without being tied to subscriptions and implied or explicit copyrights?

about cars - more and more people are leasing, and as the tech change accelerates there will be VERY little incentive to own a car, especially when they drive themselves and people are strongly discouraged from driving themselves.

about homes and land - we're already seeing more and more regulations about what people can and cannot do with supposedly their 'own' property. water, usage, zoning, etc. unless a property owner wants to live like the amish, they will be beholden to governement and corporate control for services, utilities and use.

government/corporate collusion and regulation will eliminate most property rights in the next decade.
bitkahuna is offline  
Old 04-21-15, 01:46 PM
  #5  
mmarshall
Lexus Fanatic
 
mmarshall's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2003
Location: Virginia/D.C. suburbs
Posts: 90,561
Received 83 Likes on 82 Posts
Default

Another issue is that today's vehicles have become so complex that it opens up the doors to this kind of stuff. When cars cease to become cars, and become rolling computer-stations, then they, by nature, become more subject to computer-use laws.
mmarshall is offline  
Old 04-21-15, 04:44 PM
  #6  
spwolf
Lexus Champion
 
spwolf's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2005
Posts: 19,836
Received 105 Likes on 76 Posts
Default

Originally Posted by bitkahuna
how is this any different than why toyota/lexus has encrypted its ECUs which NO ONE has cracked?
i think this is something similar to OBD port which is industry standard and 3rd party tools can access it, right? While JD is attempting to make everyone use its certified mechanics/shops to diagnose and repair their tractors.
spwolf is offline  
Old 04-21-15, 04:49 PM
  #7  
SonicMotor
Lexus Champion
iTrader: (19)
 
SonicMotor's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2011
Location: CA
Posts: 4,046
Received 0 Likes on 0 Posts
Default

I'm a HUGE GM Supporter, but looks like I'll never be purchasing a new one if this happens. Kind of ridiculous, but for some reason I can't really see this happening.
SonicMotor is offline  
Old 04-21-15, 04:55 PM
  #8  
chikoo
Lexus Champion
 
chikoo's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2006
Location: TX
Posts: 3,763
Likes: 0
Received 6 Likes on 6 Posts
Default

Eh? Customers own the tractors, and if need be, hook up a whole new computer and drive the thing the way they want, if they can.
chikoo is offline  
Old 04-24-15, 04:13 PM
  #9  
Chariotz
Rookie
 
Chariotz's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2015
Location: CA
Posts: 77
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes on 0 Posts
Exclamation Car Companies want to enforce the DMCA Act!

Did anyone hear about this?

I just saw this on Yahoo news. Apparently some major American car companies want to make it illegal to work on your own car.

https://www.yahoo.com/autos/s/gm-for...160000229.html

here's another blog about it:
http://www.autoblog.com/2014/11/25/w...r-in-the-near/



Apparently this is due to the newer cars having so many computerized parts, that it could become dangerous to mess with the car's software. But in the details of this law they want to pass, it leaves little to no leeway on doing other repairs that having nothing to do with the software itself.

Is this just a way for car companies to make more money off of customers in the future? That if you buy a new car, you have no choice but to bring it in to the dealer and get screwed on overpriced labor rates? Or is it they are really "concerned" with our safety? Could this possibly be the end of future gearheads?

What kind of "free country" will this be if we can't even work on our own cars anymore?

hmmm....

Let's get a conversation going about this. I want to hear your opinions.

Bethany P
Chariotz Inc.
Car Enthusiasts check us out!
Website: Chariotz
Facebook: Chariotzinc
Instagram: Chariotzinc
Twitter: ChariotzINC
Download our FREE app in the iTunes store here

Email: Info@chariotz.com
Chariotz is offline  
Old 04-24-15, 07:37 PM
  #10  
rxonmymind
Lexus Test Driver
 
rxonmymind's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2014
Location: Sacramento, CA
Posts: 1,252
Received 2 Likes on 2 Posts
Default

Originally Posted by mmarshall
Another issue is that today's vehicles have become so complex that it opens up the doors to this kind of stuff. When cars cease to become cars, and become rolling computer-stations, then they, by nature, become more subject to computer-use laws.
This is the exact reason every dealer I talked to who has gotten their wife/son/daughter a new car has purchased an extended warranty. One Lexus dealer said there is 7 on board computers inside the vehicles and while many attempts.to make them faultless it's not perfect. As we know from out desktop/ laptops.
rxonmymind is offline  
Old 04-26-15, 10:50 AM
  #11  
UDel
Lexus Fanatic
 
UDel's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2005
Location: ------
Posts: 12,274
Received 296 Likes on 223 Posts
Default

I won't buy a new car if I can't work on it and do maintenance myself. I do things like change oil, transmission fluid, filters, belts, bushings, etc because I am tired of getting hosed by dealerships and because I like to use higher quality fluids/parts then the dealership uses.

This is ridiculous and pure greed, they just want to make the big profits by hosing people at the dealership for work which I would not be surprised if the dealerships/automakers are in cahoots for this. They are losing money from aftermarket parts and DIY's on the internet and they want to put a stop to it with the claim cars are "too complicated" for owners to work on anymore. I am sure if this does not pass they will try to say you can only go to a certified dealership for maintenance/repairs or even get a oil change and can't use independent shops.

Only older used cars will be in my future if something like this passes. For most new technology all you have to do is get a aftermarket stereo/nav system for many upgrades/connectivity instead of buying a brand new car. I don't need annoying pointless "driver aids" like lane watch systems.
UDel is offline  
Old 04-26-15, 11:01 AM
  #12  
doge
Formerly Bad Co
Thread Starter
 
doge's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2013
Location: Chicago
Posts: 1,041
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes on 0 Posts
Default

One of the inherent rights of owning a vehicle is the ability to get on one’s backside — a wrench in one hand and a grease rag in the other, and just tinker to your little heart’s desire. Since the vehicle was invented, it’s been an important facet within the community of gearheads.

General Motors — the same company responsible for 87 deaths related to faulty ignition switches, FYI — wants to take that right away from you citing safety and security issues. Along with a few other big names.

It’s called the Digital Millennium Copyright Act (DMCA). It’s been around since 2000 and started as anti-Internet piracy legislation. But automakers want to use it to try and make working on your own car illegal. Yes, illegal. The general premise is that unlike cars of the past, today’s vehicles are so advanced and use such a large amount of software and coding in their general makeup, altering said code could be dangerous and possibly even malicious.

Listing the vehicle as a “mobile computing device,” the law would hypothetically protect automakers from pesky owners looking to alter any sort of technology in the vehicle that relates to the onboard computer. Flashing your ECU would be a big no no, which could also lead to all sorts of problems for aftermarket shops.

What GM, and even tractor companies like John Deere, argues is that you, as an owner, don’t actually own your car. Rather, you’re sort of just borrowing it for an extended amount of time and paying for the rights to use the technology. If it sounds ridiculous— it is. But it gets even more ludicrous.

According to the Electronic Frontier Foundation, John Deere argued that “letting people modify car computer systems will result in them pirating music through the on-board entertainment system.”

That’s right— pirating music. Through a tractor.

DMCA does give a little bit of leeway, though. While the act could hypothetically lock customers out of key safety features, it would still allow owners the ability to repair other areas of the vehicle’s onboard computer as they see fit. It’s a slim compromise, but one that may be more closely based in reality.

As it currently sits, there are 13 (!) large automakers on the list supporting the DMCA. Want to know who they are? Of course you do:

General Motors Company
BMW Group
FCA US LLC
Ford Motor Company
Jaguar Land Rover
Mazda
Mercedes-Benz USA
Mitsubishi Motors
Porsche
Toyota
Volkswagen Group of America
Volvo Cars North America

Ironically, one of the brands that relies most on technology in its vehicles — Tesla Motors — in not in support of DMCA. While other American companies like GM, Ford and Chrysler all agree that working on your own vehicle should be punishable by law.

Funny how three brands that pride themselves on American ingenuity don’t want customers to work on their cars.

https://www.yahoo.com/autos/s/gm-for...160000229.html

Pretty much everyone is joining,...
doge is offline  
Old 04-26-15, 04:12 PM
  #13  
joshthorsc
Lexus Champion
 
joshthorsc's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2004
Location: California
Posts: 1,784
Received 1 Like on 1 Post
Default

If that happens it means I'll never buy a new car from any of these manufacturers and will hold onto my current cars for as long as I can.
joshthorsc is offline  
Old 04-26-15, 05:11 PM
  #14  
Vladi
Pole Position
 
Vladi's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2004
Location: Florida
Posts: 2,665
Likes: 0
Received 5 Likes on 5 Posts
Default

Trend of product subscription and leasing is upon us. Soon you wont be even owning a toaster without paying monthly fees for it. Jokes aside they are trying to pull off something here and might go through but it wont stick for a while.
Vladi is offline  
Old 04-26-15, 05:50 PM
  #15  
PhilipMSPT
Cycle Savant
iTrader: (5)
 
PhilipMSPT's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2005
Location: In rehab...
Posts: 21,527
Received 6 Likes on 6 Posts
Default

Another problem is accountability and liability.

If a consumer modifies it, and something wrong happens, the consumer (who is at fault) blames the manufacturer.

On this forum, people always talk about modifying their cars, and when something goes wrong, they want the dealership to fix it under warranty.
PhilipMSPT is offline  


Quick Reply: We Can’t Let John Deere Destroy the Very Idea of Ownership



All times are GMT -7. The time now is 11:30 PM.