Chris Harris:What The F Is A Lexus Performance Car?
04-20-15, 01:35 PM
#91
Pole Position
blame euro pedestrian crash test standards that require a 3" gap between hood and the engine. Thats why cars nowdays have this blunt and bloated look. The RCF front is a lot less bloated looking than the ISF front because the GS front is longer. Another reason manufacturers are pressured to go with turbocharging other than mpg and emissions, the V8s interfere with the styling of todays cars because of pedestrian crash standards.
Lexus designers should design around this crash standard, not make it an afterthought and just raise the hood 2 or 3 inches to account for this new standard. It's unbecoming.
And no, to me, the RCF front end is worse than the ISF....probably because it's coupled with that audacious grill. Together, the raised hood flowing into that pronounced grill is quite a design statement. That's a lot of face.
04-20-15, 01:40 PM
#92
I'm sorry but the marketing of rigidity by auto manufacturers is BS. Modern chassis are already stiff enough for street and track use when using street tires. Suspension tuning plays a much factor with how the car handles.
If the 3IS chassis is such a huge leap over the 2IS chassis, why does the lesser 2011 2IS IS250 F-Sport easily outhandle the 2014 3IS IS250 F-Sport (as an example)?
http://www.motortrend.com/roadtests/...rt_first_test/
The RC-F's stiffer chassis doesn't help it from being a heavily-understeering coupe
If the 3IS chassis is such a huge leap over the 2IS chassis, why does the lesser 2011 2IS IS250 F-Sport easily outhandle the 2014 3IS IS250 F-Sport (as an example)?
http://www.motortrend.com/roadtests/...rt_first_test/
The RC-F's stiffer chassis doesn't help it from being a heavily-understeering coupe
Criticize the car all you want, you cannot explain away how the laptimes are still very competitive with a much lighter car that should be murdering it on paper.
04-20-15, 01:59 PM
#93
the 2014 IS350 F Sport has a lower laptime than the 2008 ISF on C&Ds lightning lap (3:13.4 vs 3:14.0). Yes the track was widened and repaved in certain parts but even that isnt enough to account for the difference. Think a 2IS350 can match this time? 3IS chassis and suspension is far superior to the 2IS thats why these are able to beat the 5 and 3 which they couldnt do before. Thats what happens when you have LFA engineers work on the car. Have you tracked both? I have. Figure 8 is hardly indicative of a cars true handling.
Criticize the car all you want, you cannot explain away how the laptimes are still very competitive with a much lighter car that should be murdering it on paper.
Criticize the car all you want, you cannot explain away how the laptimes are still very competitive with a much lighter car that should be murdering it on paper.
The base ISx50 also has a poor suspension tune but it does not mean the 2IS platform is not capable as you continuously preach on the forums. Both the 2IS F-Sport Factory Package and the F-Sport Accessory Package have a higher recorded skidpad (0.89g-0.91g) and slalom (71mph) than what the 3IS F-Sport has published. There are no published lap times recorded for the 2IS F-Sports because these models were never fully provided to the media by Lexus in the manner that the 3IS models have been.
04-20-15, 09:15 PM
#94
OK. But there has to be a better way than this. When did this begin, 4T? Audi had a V8 in their RS5 coupe back in the day, and its hood was not so pronounced. And the E92 M3 had a V8, and it looked better than Lexus' designs.
Lexus designers should design around this crash standard, not make it an afterthought and just raise the hood 2 or 3 inches to account for this new standard. It's unbecoming.
And no, to me, the RCF front end is worse than the ISF....probably because it's coupled with that audacious grill. Together, the raised hood flowing into that pronounced grill is quite a design statement. That's a lot of face.
Lexus designers should design around this crash standard, not make it an afterthought and just raise the hood 2 or 3 inches to account for this new standard. It's unbecoming.
And no, to me, the RCF front end is worse than the ISF....probably because it's coupled with that audacious grill. Together, the raised hood flowing into that pronounced grill is quite a design statement. That's a lot of face.
04-21-15, 11:37 AM
#95
Very interesting article and a lot of input from many CL forum members. Overall, you are buying a Lexus to have a Lexus. I think the advancements have been good and there is plenty of room for improvement. Lexus is not just focused on a European and American based market like many European cars. I'd say let the comments keep flowing and development keep going. Lexus is still a nice car, just not a race car lol. 
Just my two cents...
Added:
Oh, and as for the F-sport packages... they are just trims with some fancy bells and whistles. IMHO, when talking about a real "F-sport" it is entirely different. The RCF, ISF, GSF should be held to different standards based off of different internals and drivetrain. Those V8s are more than capable if we could just tune them ourselves.
Just my two cents...
Added:
Oh, and as for the F-sport packages... they are just trims with some fancy bells and whistles. IMHO, when talking about a real "F-sport" it is entirely different. The RCF, ISF, GSF should be held to different standards based off of different internals and drivetrain. Those V8s are more than capable if we could just tune them ourselves.
Last edited by shirosan; 04-21-15 at 11:42 AM. Reason: Added info
04-21-15, 12:07 PM
#96
Lexus Champion
I completely agree with the author.
I am the target demographic for a Lexus performance car. I was one of the very first owners of the IS300 when it hit US shores. I then had another one, this time the manual I wanted.
Nowadays, there's not a car Lexus makes that I want as a DD. BMW does. So does Audi. But not Lexus!
Sure, I own an RX450h, which is our family car. But there is space in the garage for 2 Lexuses again.
I am not holding my breath, though. At the end of the day, Lexus is still a Toyota, which can only build boring reliable cars that sell like hotcakes to the general public.
I am the target demographic for a Lexus performance car. I was one of the very first owners of the IS300 when it hit US shores. I then had another one, this time the manual I wanted.
Nowadays, there's not a car Lexus makes that I want as a DD. BMW does. So does Audi. But not Lexus!
Sure, I own an RX450h, which is our family car. But there is space in the garage for 2 Lexuses again.
I am not holding my breath, though. At the end of the day, Lexus is still a Toyota, which can only build boring reliable cars that sell like hotcakes to the general public.
04-21-15, 01:12 PM
#97
Lexus Test Driver
I kinda agree with Harris (minus the harsh Lexus bashing undertones).
One thing that bothers me about these articles tho, is that they keep comparing Lexus to its German luxury/sport counterparts when Lexus already OWNS the Japanese market as one of the fastest production cars to come out of the Japanese Domestic Market.
The way I see it, you compare Chevys to Fords to Dodges... Thats the American Demographic for fastest cars State Side.
You Compare BMW's to Audi's to Mercedes... That is the fastest in the European market (minus obvious the super car market)
In Japan, other than the Nissan GTR, I don't see any other production car faster than the Lexus V8 RC/GS/IS-F models (excluding the LFA). Honda's new NSX is almost there but not really a production car yet. And Subaru and infiniti no where even close for a PRODUCTION car.
I get it, it lacks power in the Luxury Car market compared to the its German and American counterparts but who cares. These designers build these cars based Japanese manufacturing and then second hand modify for other markets. I think its doing just fine as top of their market. Until Lexus joins the rest of the world with the turbo charged community, it will be just fine where it is.
One thing that bothers me about these articles tho, is that they keep comparing Lexus to its German luxury/sport counterparts when Lexus already OWNS the Japanese market as one of the fastest production cars to come out of the Japanese Domestic Market.
The way I see it, you compare Chevys to Fords to Dodges... Thats the American Demographic for fastest cars State Side.
You Compare BMW's to Audi's to Mercedes... That is the fastest in the European market (minus obvious the super car market)
In Japan, other than the Nissan GTR, I don't see any other production car faster than the Lexus V8 RC/GS/IS-F models (excluding the LFA). Honda's new NSX is almost there but not really a production car yet. And Subaru and infiniti no where even close for a PRODUCTION car.
I get it, it lacks power in the Luxury Car market compared to the its German and American counterparts but who cares. These designers build these cars based Japanese manufacturing and then second hand modify for other markets. I think its doing just fine as top of their market. Until Lexus joins the rest of the world with the turbo charged community, it will be just fine where it is.
Last edited by NYKnick101; 04-21-15 at 01:15 PM.
04-21-15, 01:32 PM
#98
Moderator: LFA, Clubhouse
Is anything Chris Harris said in his article actually wrong? The number of ad hominem attacks in this thread that don't contain any actual discussion much less refutation of any of the actual arguments Harris has made don't serve the reputation of this board well.
Of course, I posted a more general criticism of the direction of the F brand a few months ago and I was bashed for it, so no surprise I guess.
You are not wrong - Chris Harris loved the LFA, even while others were bashing it. Remember that back then, even Jeremy Clarkson didn't like the LFA yet, and Harris made fun of Clarkson's criticism during his first evo video review.
But we're not talking about "every" car or even "every" Lexus car; we're talking about the F marque. Lexus makes plenty of sensible cars, non-performance-oriented cars for cruising - they're called the LS, RX, or even RC350. Not the RC-F, not the GS-F, not the LFA.
Please be aware that Chris Harris' original review of the RC-F (youtube) beat Top Gear's RC-F review (Series 22, Episode 6) to publication by nearly 2 weeks.
Please, please, please don't make the logical fallacy of accusing people of hypocrisy merely because they belong to the same group but have differing opinions. Those articles were written by different authors and can be discussed on their own merits (or lack thereof). It would be like calling Club Lexus hypocritical because I happen to disagree with another user here - it makes absolutely no sense.
Just to clarify, the 7:14 lap time was broken by Club Lexus. It was CL member kennyp who posted it, relaying the news from someone he knew attending the event. I relayed the information to Chris Harris, who then reported it on his blog.
Of course, I posted a more general criticism of the direction of the F brand a few months ago and I was bashed for it, so no surprise I guess.
Jalopnik attacks Lexus for not making more high powered cars like the LFA. But then they attack the LFA for "being the worst halo car of all time". You can't win. Lol...The LFA was criticized for being too expensive, too exclusive. But if that's what it takes to make a halo car with Lexus caliber, then the Jalponik critics should pay up. Lexus has no obligation to Jalopnik writers to make the LFA affordable to them.
Actually, he was the first person who broke the news of LFA lap record of 7:14 around Nurburgring on his blog as he was standing there. I saw him fight with haters on his blog who dissed the LFA. He had said, only Porsche Carrera GT comes to LFA in terms of driving experience and not much else.
Last edited by gengar; 04-21-15 at 01:35 PM.
04-21-15, 01:35 PM
#99
Lexus Fanatic
Article is spot on. Lets try to be objective. If we love Lexus we should expect more. I am a HUGE fan boy but I am a bigger enthusiast and I know although they are heading in the right direction they have made some really dumb moves over the last 4 years.
1. dead ISF with no replacement
2. "new " LS460 looks like the last gen
3. RCF is a pig and again doesnt beat the bmw
4. GSF has the same engine as the RCF and thus killed the ISF AND its going to have its *** destroyed by zee Germans
5. NO LFA replacement
6. Still using the same tire *** NA motors as last gen for IS, GS,RX, and LS
We need more than reliability to maintain interest.
Whats really upsetting is that I know Lexus can do better than this. Like I have said, when you step to someone to fight them you knock them out. .......you do not push them and get behind them in line.
1. dead ISF with no replacement
2. "new " LS460 looks like the last gen
3. RCF is a pig and again doesnt beat the bmw
4. GSF has the same engine as the RCF and thus killed the ISF AND its going to have its *** destroyed by zee Germans
5. NO LFA replacement
6. Still using the same tire *** NA motors as last gen for IS, GS,RX, and LS
We need more than reliability to maintain interest.
Whats really upsetting is that I know Lexus can do better than this. Like I have said, when you step to someone to fight them you knock them out. .......you do not push them and get behind them in line.
04-21-15, 01:50 PM
#100
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seriously ladies and gents, lets look at this article as auto enthusiasts and not Lexus lovers.....
Chris has a point or two. The GS-F cannot be released until its ready to compete with the AMG, Ms, Vs, RS, etc. The GS-F may be a performance sedan, but its not in the league with the ones i just mentioned.
The RC-F is a nice car. I drove it, along with an M4, on the track and the M just hugs better. But BMW has been at this forever. Look at the IS-F......it could never be tuned. Why would Lexus keep such a lock on it? AMG and M can be retuned or chipped and really make some difference. the F department needs to get on the same page. I love lexus and i hope to get another one, but everyone needs to get off the fanboy page and really look at whats our there for competition. I hope the RC-F will be able to be modded and tuned, or even the future IS-F. but that 2016 CTS-V is a monster and may get my pick for the next performance vehicle.
The F-Sport line.....i don't even want to talk about. they might as well get rid of the base line of vehicles and let the F-Sport be the only option. everyone and their mother has one.
Chris has a point or two. The GS-F cannot be released until its ready to compete with the AMG, Ms, Vs, RS, etc. The GS-F may be a performance sedan, but its not in the league with the ones i just mentioned.
The RC-F is a nice car. I drove it, along with an M4, on the track and the M just hugs better. But BMW has been at this forever. Look at the IS-F......it could never be tuned. Why would Lexus keep such a lock on it? AMG and M can be retuned or chipped and really make some difference. the F department needs to get on the same page. I love lexus and i hope to get another one, but everyone needs to get off the fanboy page and really look at whats our there for competition. I hope the RC-F will be able to be modded and tuned, or even the future IS-F. but that 2016 CTS-V is a monster and may get my pick for the next performance vehicle.
The F-Sport line.....i don't even want to talk about. they might as well get rid of the base line of vehicles and let the F-Sport be the only option. everyone and their mother has one.
04-21-15, 03:13 PM
#101
OK. But there has to be a better way than this. When did this begin, 4T? Audi had a V8 in their RS5 coupe back in the day, and its hood was not so pronounced. And the E92 M3 had a V8, and it looked better than Lexus' designs.
Lexus designers should design around this crash standard, not make it an afterthought and just raise the hood 2 or 3 inches to account for this new standard. It's unbecoming.
And no, to me, the RCF front end is worse than the ISF....probably because it's coupled with that audacious grill. Together, the raised hood flowing into that pronounced grill is quite a design statement. That's a lot of face.
Lexus designers should design around this crash standard, not make it an afterthought and just raise the hood 2 or 3 inches to account for this new standard. It's unbecoming.
And no, to me, the RCF front end is worse than the ISF....probably because it's coupled with that audacious grill. Together, the raised hood flowing into that pronounced grill is quite a design statement. That's a lot of face.
at least .8" not 3"
04-21-15, 03:31 PM
#102
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We must keep in mind that Lexus has limited experince of making the performance technology of today: turbo/compressor charged engines in different cyl configurations + DSG/PDK/F1 ( or what ever people wants to call them ) gearboxes. Porsche and Audi had those engines for decades. BMW and MB turbocharged diesels for decades as well. Just because they implemented this to M and AMG engines late does not mean lack in experience or knowledge.
I dont think they had a single thought about cars like the M3 or E 500 AMG when they created Lexus back in 1989. They wanted a soft luxury car with outstanding service, refinement and quality. You dont just wash this kind of culture away in a couple of years. It took Audi almost 15 years to really compete with M and AMG . In fact Audi lost every single comparo during the 90:ties and nobody really understood what the goal with "S" was. That sounds familiar in some way
I dont think they had a single thought about cars like the M3 or E 500 AMG when they created Lexus back in 1989. They wanted a soft luxury car with outstanding service, refinement and quality. You dont just wash this kind of culture away in a couple of years. It took Audi almost 15 years to really compete with M and AMG . In fact Audi lost every single comparo during the 90:ties and nobody really understood what the goal with "S" was. That sounds familiar in some way
04-21-15, 05:51 PM
#103
Pole Position
Yes, it's also annoying, but still a slightly better design than the ISF hood.
Sad, because it seems like 3". 
04-21-15, 06:19 PM
#104
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I kinda agree with Harris (minus the harsh Lexus bashing undertones).
One thing that bothers me about these articles tho, is that they keep comparing Lexus to its German luxury/sport counterparts when Lexus already OWNS the Japanese market as one of the fastest production cars to come out of the Japanese Domestic Market.
The way I see it, you compare Chevys to Fords to Dodges... Thats the American Demographic for fastest cars State Side.
You Compare BMW's to Audi's to Mercedes... That is the fastest in the European market (minus obvious the super car market)
In Japan, other than the Nissan GTR, I don't see any other production car faster than the Lexus V8 RC/GS/IS-F models (excluding the LFA). Honda's new NSX is almost there but not really a production car yet. And Subaru and infiniti no where even close for a PRODUCTION car.
I get it, it lacks power in the Luxury Car market compared to the its German and American counterparts but who cares. These designers build these cars based Japanese manufacturing and then second hand modify for other markets. I think its doing just fine as top of their market. Until Lexus joins the rest of the world with the turbo charged community, it will be just fine where it is.
One thing that bothers me about these articles tho, is that they keep comparing Lexus to its German luxury/sport counterparts when Lexus already OWNS the Japanese market as one of the fastest production cars to come out of the Japanese Domestic Market.
The way I see it, you compare Chevys to Fords to Dodges... Thats the American Demographic for fastest cars State Side.
You Compare BMW's to Audi's to Mercedes... That is the fastest in the European market (minus obvious the super car market)
In Japan, other than the Nissan GTR, I don't see any other production car faster than the Lexus V8 RC/GS/IS-F models (excluding the LFA). Honda's new NSX is almost there but not really a production car yet. And Subaru and infiniti no where even close for a PRODUCTION car.
I get it, it lacks power in the Luxury Car market compared to the its German and American counterparts but who cares. These designers build these cars based Japanese manufacturing and then second hand modify for other markets. I think its doing just fine as top of their market. Until Lexus joins the rest of the world with the turbo charged community, it will be just fine where it is.
04-21-15, 10:58 PM
#105
Lexus Champion
They dont need an answer to every competitors car. How many people buy a Lexus RC F to go to a race track, or potential buyers lost because it's slightly slower than an M4? Who buys luxury cars just on tracking performance? Im sure there are a few, but people see V8, 467hp, theyre impressed. The majority buy an F because its a performance Lexus. Do you need 550, 600hp in a mid size luxury sedan like the GS F? Lexus doesnt think its that big of a deal obviously. Amazing how everyone wants them to be their own company, but crap on them for not 'following' the Germans or Caddy. Then you see grief given to them for their unique spindle grille. Damned if they do damned if they dont. Let them do their own thing, you dont have to like it. Who cares what Chris Harris or any other journalist says? Decisions should be made by you not for you.
