RXSF

Also I would like to point out that you get 40% of braking power 1.6 seconds before impact, and then full emergency braking at 0.6 seconds upon impact on the MB system.

I will be sure to thank lexus for reducing my speed by 25mph if I ever get into a collision

spwolf

it is confusing because MB is presenting these systems as 10 different ones, while they are one and the same.

For instance - BAS Plus is what auto brakes... it doesnt just prepare the brakes, that is the system you see tested in IIHS and videos.

Their full speed system braking at full force only 0.6 before seems to be really limited and what Lexus LS had with their pre-crash system right now where it would activate only at the end.

So once again, looking at those speeds quoted, it seems to me that MB right now is using significantly inferior sensors that cant detect as well as new Lexus system, all at 5x larger price.

RXSF

No, BAS plus is not the auto brake. it is simply the audible warning and the radar based calculation of how much to brake" IE, if you don't step on the brake enough, it will press more for you but not too much as to get rear ended. if you are pressing too hard, it will only brake just enough to prevent impact.

I guess we will simply have to disagree here and let the consumer decide which system is better. The lane keep assist and high beam functions are not improved over previous generation and the auto braking barely meets the tech of other systems, though you seem to think it is vastly superior.

spwolf

lol... it seems you are being offended at suggestion that Lexus has superior system than MB... why? It makes no sense... there is no reason to take this personally.

Numbers dont lie.

Actually you can go to EuroNCAP and see real info about C class safety system:
http://www.euroncap.com/en/results/m...z/c-class/7876

As you can see, they have tested them and they support the numbers I put in there.

MB auto-brake system works up to 70kmh which is 45mph. Only collision warning works after that.

According to results from EuroNCAP, it seems that C class has inferior system compared to Lexus NX, which uses old system. Both systems can be found on euroncap.com with full testing info.

Who would know?! I didnt realize it myself.

NX testing:
http://euroncap.blob.core.windows.ne...014_5stars.pdf

C class testing:
http://euroncap.blob.core.windows.ne...014_5stars.pdf

So if old Lexus system is superior then new one is going to be top notch!

RXSF

Under the C class vehicle details, the test vehicle did not have the pre safe/distronic package. Without presafe brake, of course it would score lower than the NX. It only had collision prevention assist which is standard across the C class lineup and works at lower speeds with less effective braking

I agree that the MB systems are too separated into various acronyms, but to be clear, there are multiple systems at work here.

BAS Plus
Collision Prevention assist
Pre Safe Brake

I am not taking it personal, but given the facts presented, I cannot see how you can think the Lexus system is superior to MB's system. I know you are a die hard Lexus/Toyota fan and I am a die hard MB fan, but prejudice aside and with what has been discussed here, I still don't see it. I think we need more people to chime in to see.

JessePS

How does Toyota/Lexus safety systems compare to Subaru's EyeSight?

ydooby

The effectiveness of the systems varies by models. Below is a 50km/h self-stopping test.

In the order of appearance:
Lexus LS: passed
Subaru Levorg: passed
Honda Odyssey: failed
Infiniti Q50: passed
Subaru Forester: passed
Mazda Axela (Mazda3): failed
Nissan Note: failed
Nissan X-TRAIL: failed
Toyota Camry: failed
Subaru XV: failed
Mazda Atenza (Mazda6): failed

spwolf

System in NX is slightly inferior, system in RX should be superior.

EuroNCAP tested Subaru system and it did better than both NX and C class that I posted above.

It is hard to find out small details on how any of them work, a lot of PR and a lot less of actual data... thats why EuroNCAP tests were invaluable because they actually test 10 different situations and give us all the info in detail.

spwolf

it is all the same system and ecu :-). There is a camera sensor and some type of radar sensor, and ecu that powers them... thats it.

I checked MB Germany website for pre-crash before posting and it does not give any extra braking according to the option sheet listed there... apparently all the braking stuff is called collision-something and is included by default in EU. Only extras are extras that dont involve actual auto brake system, and it is still very expensive, over €3000 for extras and thats not including €500 for backup camera :-).

So what you see there in EuroNCAP tests is what there is when it comes to auto braking.

There is nothing wrong with being MB fan, I like their new cars a lot... Where I wouldnt have bought old C class ever (or S class), I would get new one in a heartbeat but that does not mean that we shouldnt recognize when Lexus does well and has industry leading tech, like they do here.

For instance, NX specs are actually a lot worse than what new system is doing in every way and is still manages to beat C class in EuroNCAP and comes very close to Subaru...

Compared to NX, new system can do a lot more:
- 30% extra braking power
- Unlimited max speed
- Lower minimum speed (7 mph vs 20 mph)
- New Pedestrian system
- New Assist system
- New sign detection
- New cruise control... and who knows what else, it is completely new from grounds up.
- All at $1500 less.

Once again, at $300 to $600, this new system is no brainer at all... I would pay $600 just for auto high beam!

spwolf

Cool thing right now is that there are 3 governing bodies actually testing these right now in the world... so we dont have to just read PR from manufacturers - IIHS, EuroNCAP and JNCAP.

That way we can read and watch actual tests and plus they can test them for errors, like they do crash tests.

RXSF

I was reading the euroncap PDF on the C class and there is no mention of the word "presafe," only collision prevention assist. In the US, CPA is standard on most models and will do auto brake at low speeds with a number of audible and visual warnings. In order to get the full auto brake at higher speeds, you have to step up to the distronic package. And they are not the same equipment either. CPA only uses radar while Distronic/presafe also uses camera.

I took a look at the IIHS ratings for the NX and the E class (because the C class was not tested with presafe brake)

The NX received a "advanced" rating. At 12mph, it avoided the collision. At 25mph, it reduced speed by 9mph.
http://www.iihs.org/iihs/ratings/veh.../nx-4-door-suv

E class received a "superior with option equipment" rating. At 12mph, it avoided the collision. At 25mph, it avoided the collision.
http://www.iihs.org/iihs/ratings/veh...s-4-door-sedan

So this contradicts what the euroncap concluded, unless you account for the fact that the C class they tested did not have the presafe package.

spwolf

you are being obtuse on the purpose... Now I had to investigate how Mercedes Benz works.
Basically their latest auto brake system is called CPA+... it is not CPA - CPA is just for warning, no brakes. CPA+ is what pre-crash and distronic plus call when they need auto brake. It is all part of the same system. It has radar sensors. Without pre-crash you wont get seat belts retracted and without distronic plus you wont get dynamic cruise control but they auto brake with CPA+.

CPA+ should work up until 105kmh, and yet it fails to prevent accident after 55kmh according to EuroNCAP. It seems it does not work good at higher speeds. So even Distronic plus would likely bring nothing at all under 105kmh which is where this was tested. NX system should work between 30 and 70kmh and it still works better than CPA+. with preventing the accident up until 70 kmh as stated. And again, NX is "old" system, which much lower specs than new one.

Now if you have problem with EuroNCAP, maybe you should write to either Mercedes Germany or EuroNCAP (maybe both), to get the car retested? Dunno. Also, it still does not cover the fact that Lexus system for pedestrians works at 16kmh more than MB one either.

RXSF

Sorry, I dont believe they are the same system. There is a reason why they have two names. As I said before, CPA(or now CPA+) is only for low speed auto braking. Pre Safe Brake is for higher speeds and more active braking

From the MB headquarters website regarding CPA+:
"In addition, automatic partial braking is even initiated in the event of an imminent collision. The system is active in moving vehicles at speeds up to 105 km/h and in the case of stationary obstacles up to 70 km/h."

OTOH, Pre safe brake uses a stereo camera and from the same website:
"This system provides a visual and acoustic warning in the event of an imminent collision and brakes your vehicle in an emergency automatically to a stop"

Now, doesn't that sound like CPA+ is a weaker system that is standard across the lineup, and that it will only do "partial" braking? and the Pre safe brake will do full braking? and from my earlier post, will do so up to 200kph

There is no need to get the car retested as the test points out the vehicle is only equipped with CPA+ as standard equipment and not the optional Pre Safe.

RXSF

OH you need you watch this video, it explains everything

at 1:25 Regarding CPA+:
"Should the system detect that you have not reacted to the warnings, it can apply the brakes automatically at up to speeds up to 65mph. On models with distronic plus adaptive cruise control, its pre safe brake feature replaces collision prevention assist and offers automatic braking of up to 125 mph"

Also note the graphics for CPA+ in that it uses two radars at :18 set in the bumper. Compare that to this video, that explains pre safe which uses a stereo camera.

bitkahuna

iTrader: (20)

great info guys...

nothing better than lexus and mercedes duking it out over safety! we all win.