Mr. Burns

I'm not bashing sales, I'm stating facts. I'm sorry if those facts were not in line with your rosy perception of these cars' performance in the market.

Here's some more undesirable facts for you.

The Genesis sedan did not outsell the 4GS by 50%, Hyundai moved 19,133 Genesis sedans in 2014, compared to 22,198 for the 4GS. The sales numbers you see on Hyundai's website are for the combined sedan and coupe.

If the Genesis based at $45k those would be solid numbers. But when with discounts you could get into a new Genesis for $35k-$38k, about the price of an Avalon, suddenly it's not so great. Now I know there are countless Hyundai fanboys who lament the Genesis being compared to anything but the midsize RWD lux cars, but from just a profit perspective, Toyota sold 67k Avalons last year at similar price point. And they didn't have to bother with the added cost of RWD etc...

And the Genesis is pretty much the only upscale midsize sedan Hyundai/Kia buyers are buying. Azera sales in 2014 were 7k units, Cadenza was at 9k. And their numbers tapered very sharply towards the end of 2014 and the start of 2015. In January, Kia sold just 383 Cadenzas and Hyundai sold just 584 Azeras. Toyota/Lexus meanwhile obviously also sell A LOT of midsize upscale sedans in addition to the 4GS (139k Avalon and ES sold in 2014).

Mercedes S-class is brand new. But here's the thing, the S-class, 7 series, and LS have all sold at volume numbers north of 20k or even 25k/year at one point in the latest generation's model life. Those were the peak years. Could Hyundai/Kia EVER sell K900s and Equuses at that volume? Of course not, nowhere close. So while you may fancy comparing today's already dismal K900/Equus sales numbers to the LS at the end of its life, the sales gap will be significantly larger when the next LS drops.

I'm not fond of them no. But that has nothing to do with them still not having an image on par with Toyota or Honda in the early 90s. Not even close. For you to say that you have to claim that Hyundai/Kia have the best image of any mainstream brand on the market today, which is ridiculous.



As I told you, it was on sale for every month last year except for January and February. At 150 units/mo average, Jan+Feb numbers would have made no difference. Heck even 150 units is very generous, since sales fell very sharply 4-5 months in. K900 did double digit sales for 4 months in a row last year. They did NBA promotions last year too, in fact sales started tapering off just as the promotion was peaking.


The influx of foreign luxury car brands has notably impacted H/K's domestic lux volume such that even there they are under pressure. Over time even in SK it may no longer be viable to have two full size lux sedans since they would essentially be competing with eachother.


Hate is a strong word. I don't hate it, I just don't think it's anything exceptional or original. It's a middle of the road offering with zero unique character or attractions.

No I'm not nuts, I checked them both out literally side by side. The S-class interior has a better design, but to say materials and execution are $30k better or done without cost cutting is outrageously false. There is plenty of cost cutting, I'm sorry if that is not accurately conveyed in MB issued PR photos.

Later this year at the autoshow I'll take my camera and point out to you in photos every area where there is cost cutting in the S-class interior, more so than the same area in the LS. I'm absolutely sick of hearing about how the S-class has no cost cutting, it has plenty of it. New C-class does too and I look forward to checking that out side-by-side as well.

bitkahuna

iTrader: (20)

You seem to have missed or overlooked that i said JANUARY not all of 2014 the latter being meaningless as the new genesis wasn't out all last year.

Except i didn't compare. You seem to be making straw man arguments, so enjoy debating yourself.

mmarshall

At the recent D.C. Auto Show, I examined a new S550 out on the floor.....in White Pearl. I certainly can't say that I saw much of what I would call cost-cutting inside the car, where it was pretty impressive (and I usually notice interior cost-cutting details). But, outside, especially for a $94,000 base price, the thin sheet metal and tinny-sounding, clink-closing doors left a bit to be desired......especially with a Mercedes G-Wagen (Gelandewagen also parked in the same display with doors, frame, and sheet metal literally almost like a tank. Shutting the G-Wagen's doors was like a bank vault.

SW17LS

LOL, remember...most of those sales are the OLD Genesis...not the new Genesis which is a much better car.

This is actually not the case, the Genesis is nowhere near that steeply discounted. I considered buying one.

You calling anybody else a fanboy is a laugh loll

If by brand new you mean halfway through its second model year, okay.,

You hating them has everything to do with your perception of their image. There is not a Toyota branded product today I would buy over its Hyundai competition...

You may as well be telling you the sky is green. There is no cost cutting in an MB S Class interior lol.

Of course theres cost cutting in the C.

Mr. Burns

Except the Genesis sedan didn't outsell the 4GS in January by "50%" either, 1679 for the GS versus 1646 for the Genesis (at 63% take rate for sedan as was the case in 2014). Ideally the Genesis sedan should be selling in the 2k-2.5k/month region for what it is.

Don't pin your mistakes on me please.

Gojirra99

Probably not in a S65 and S600, but S class variants below those are not leather covered on ALL surfaces I believe, so maybe he can pick on those little bits that are covered by "cheap" plastics

Those S class sold and sometimes used as taxi's in Europe, which are the 6 cylinder/diesels, you will find more plastic surfaces on them, and probably fake leather seats ...... previous generations, I think even cloth seats is an option for the lower S class models (not sure about the current)

SW17LS

LOL, true enough.

Lets put it this way, there is nothing that is "plastic" in an S Class that is not also "plastic" in an LS.

tex2670

No you didn't, because in 1995, Kia would have received horrible reviews.

tex2670

I suspect this is generally the case--at least with the LS. I think these upscale Korean sedans are generally compared with something in a class lower. I think people who are looking at an Avalon or an ES may decide to go with a Genesis and get more features and luxury for not all that much more. I'm not sure who's buying the Equus or the K900 though--people fed up with Caddy and Lincoln, maybe?

I'm in the camp that have faith in the Hyundai and Kia products. If I was in the market for a family sedan, I would seriously consider the Optima; if I was in the market for a minivan, I'd seriously consider the Sedona (even though it just finished 3rd in a C&D comparison test); and if I was in the market for an SUV, I would seriously consider the Santa Fe and the new (not the current) Sorento. BUT, even with all these quality products, it is a lot to ask potential customers to plunk down $60K for a "luxury" car without a longer track record. Especially when they are selling them out of the same showroom as an Accent or a Soul. The success Lexus has is, in part, because of the history of Toyota reliability (a much longer track record at the time than the Koreans currently have), and the requirement that Lexus be it's own standalone luxury brand, not being sold side by side with a Tercel and a pickup. Look at the Mazda 929/Millennium, and the VW Pheaton--I don't think those cars failed because the vehicles themselves. The branding, marketing and sales strategy doomed them.

I hope the K900 and Equus do better, but history is not on their side.

Toys4RJill

I could see Cadillac and Lincoln buyers purchasing Hyundai's or a KIA, both of those brands are nowhere near Lexus and forget about comparing them to Audi, BMW etc.

mmarshall

You misinterpreted my post. Like some of today's doubters, what I was referring to was that, in 1995, it was also a hard sell back then to get me to believe that Kia and Hyundai would someday build respectable and reliable products. I don't remember recommending Kia or Hyundai products, back then, to any car shopper. However, time and circumstances change.....today's Kia products prove it.

tex2670

Yes, times change. And the post you replied to made that comment based upon current data, not 1995 data. And he still wouldn't buy one. So I didn't misinterpret your post, it's just not responsive to the post before it.

Toys4RJill

I find astonishing that some people on the board are trying to push the notion that the KIA900 is the equivalent to an LS. Its all about branding, the KIA has no brand equity when it comes to this class of vehicle.

Let's look at the ES for a second, there are a lot of folks who think the Buick Lacrosse is in the same league as the ES. Its simply not true. The Lexus name alone is far more prestigious than a Buick that does not qualify as a luxury brand. An Avalon on the other hand could and should be compared to the Lacrosse. Both on brand and individual model name.

I often see folks comparing the Toyota Land Cruiser to a Chevy Tahoe, its unbelievable that someome would do this. The Land Cruiser compared with a Land Rover and Range Rover.

A Corvette, compares very favourably with a Porsche or even a low end Ferrari.

The KIA is just not the same. The Genesis on the other hand should and does compare very well with a GS350. Aside from that, it does not compare with any Cadillac , BMW or any other Lexus for that matter.

The Escalade and Navigator should and do compare but the Caddy compares well with Merc and Range Rover on name and prestige alone, not so for the Navigator.

tex2670

You lost me here. On a pure car type, I think the Sequoia matches up with a Tahoe. But other than as to off-road capability, how does a Land Cruiser match up to a Range Rover? Range Rover's peer should be the GX470--both are lux brands.

I also don't see the Corvette having the same prestige as a Porsche, and certainly not a Ferrari. Capability--yes vs. the Porsche; maybe vs a Ferrari, depending on the model. But prestige--not a chance, certainly not as compared to a Ferrari. It's actually the same concept as the K900--a Corvette on the showroom floor next to a Spark cannot have the same prestige as those other brands.

mmarshall

Actually, the original post was from a Car and Driver long-term test, not CL members trying to prove any point.

Nameplates don't always matter. A lot of people, for instance, compare the Avalon to the ES. And, except for the nameplate and some styling differences, there isn't really a while lot of difference between the two, though the ES admittedly does have slightly more solid-feeling hardware inside. But both, in a way, actually compete with the LaCrosse.