SW17LS

I don't know that I agree that Toyota in 1989 was all that much better off than Kia or Hyundai is today, in fact I think Hyundai is probably ahead of where Toyota was then, today.

Toyota was only about 10 years removed from building cheap, throwaway economy cars and having that be their bread and butter.

The Equus hasn't been out for 10 years, try 5 years. It can't really be compared to Lexus because Lexus had the brand, the dealer network, the advertising, etc. The Equus is just not very visible.

This is true, but if we look at the new Genesis compared to the previous Genesis, I think you will see the next Equus is a whole lot more serious.

Why? Kia is doing great. The K900 is a very good car, every review speaks to that. Its a great value. What is there to laugh at? Not everybody cares about a badge...in fact about 600 or so people a month don't seem to care about a badge. Just FYI...combined Equus and K900 sales just about equal LS sales.

I'm not saying the badge isn't important, its something I struggle with despite really liking the Genesis and Equus, but to laugh at or discount a vehicle JUST because of its badge is incredible vain and small minded.

If you care about badge first and foremost, even Lexus will let you down.

Mr. Burns

Toyota in the early 90s was a darling renowned for quality cars.


That's because they're facing stiff competition now in the domestic Korean market.


Ok there are a lot of problems with this post. First, 600 people don't buy a K900 every month, in fact the K900 has never sold anywhere near 600 a month. The best it ever did was 260. They sold 119 in January. Towards the tail end of 2014, it posted the following numbers:

September: 56
October: 62
November: 69
December: 93

And December is a hot month for lux car sales, the LS did 1,020 units in December 2014, 10x the volume of the K900.

Second, the Equus + K900 do not "just about equal" LS sales, last year the two combined did 4,745 units (3,415 Equus, 1,330 K900), about half of what the LS did (8,559). The Equus at this point (and now even the K900) are also much more heavily discounted than the LS, on top of their already sizeable price advantage.

When only 1,330 people bought a K900 in all of 2014, it doesn't bode well for your argument that "not everybody cares about a badge", especially when you compare it with the top badge in the segment, the S-class at 25,276 units. Clearly A LOT more people care about the badge than don't.

Badge is important for a lux car, few are willing to spend $60,000 for a Kia when they can get much more respectable brands for similar money. To discount this is naiive. It doesn't take merit away from the Equus/K900 as cars (though personally I don't think they're that great a cars to begin with), but it is how the market operates.

Kia has no future in this segment, at least not in any significant way. Hyundai might be able to compete, if they come out with a separate Genesis brand to distinguish the premium products from their plebeian counterparts. But even so, having the product now (Equus, Genesis, K900) is one thing, maintaining enough volume to keep them viable in the long term is another. Don't forget both Acura and Infiniti started off with much stronger lineups, Infiniti for example had the Q45 flagship, but over time they just couldn't compete well enough to keep it viable. So they killed it off.

The existence of an Equus or K900 in this market does not necessarily guarantee long term success, or that these cars will even exist in two generations time. The next Equus will be the test of this, if it continues to post the numbers it does, I doubt we'll see another one in the NA market. The K900 is as good as gone in the US market, I doubt even a new one would boost sales to worthwhile levels.

Toys4RJill

Well said Mr Burns, the KIA has no chance , the sales are so insignificant that its almost embassasing for them to even consider keeping this joke of a thing around.

The Genesis is a little bit of a different story, as a one-off it works well, but if Hyundai thinks they are going to sell other models off the Genesis brand then they dead wrong.

Look how bad the Lincoln brand is selling, the Cadillac brand is doing really poorly and where would KIA/Hyundai possibly fit into all of this?

SW17LS

I think Hyundai's reputation is getting close. The buzz I hear out there.

Which we benefit from, but the car is also largely designed for our market.

I never said it did. I said combined K900 and Equus sales could approach 600 units.

That was only a partial year for the K900.

And I can buy an LS460 on the lot for $10k off, any LS460. Its pretty heavily discounted. The LS' sales, market position, and desirability is but a shadow of what it once was.

I didn't say "nobody" cares about a badge...I said "not everybody cares about a badge"...and if one K900 or one Equus is sold...then it supports my statement.

Look, I'm not saying these cars are the equal to the LS, and certainly not the S Class. I'm not saying they will ever reach sales parity. I'm just saying that they *are* very good cars, at a very good price point. People are buying them, not a ton of people, but people.

Certainly a luxury car is an image oriented purchase, as I've said before...I struggle with it as well.

First off, have you ever driven either an Equus or a K900? I would bet you haven't. I have not driven a K900, but I have sat in it and I have driven the Equus. The LS is a better car, but the Equus is VERY similar. It reminds me more of the LS430.

And...you can't buy a similar vehicle from a "more respectable brand" for similar money. Even a base LS460 SWB (the K900 and Equus are LWB, not SWB) starts at $72k. At $60,000 the K900 and Equus are significantly less money. As somebody who wants a large flagship style car, but is really not jazzed up to spend more than $60k thats very appealing. Don't say you can buy used, with that argument why buy an LS when you could buy a used S550 for that money? Why buy an S550 when you can buy a used Bentley? So on and so forth. You have to compare new to new.

Theres a niche for these cars. A lot of people driving LS's and such that get tired of the ever escalating prices when they go to trade for a new one, with Lexus getting sportier and the S Class retaining that luxury track but being out of reach for the $75k buyer, the Equus is a very attractive alternative. I think its more attractive than the K900...

Mr. Burns

Hyundai's reputation isn't anywhere near Toyota's in the 90s, and it doesn't help that as a brand they still can't consistently top quality/dependability surveys. Image is a whole different ball game, again, Kia still suffers from a lower rent image.

Even that is a stretch. Combined 600 units would mean 7200 units a year, they sold 4700, or an average of 390-400 units per mo combined.


Only January and February were not included, include those at K900 rates and you're adding 100-200 extra units. It doesn't make any difference. K900 is off to a slow start in its second year at 119 units in January, sales for 2015 can very well be lower than 2014 even with the extra two months (not including the on-again off-again pending V6 model). And this is supposed to go on for another 4-5 years?

Every car is discounted, you have to compare to percentage of discount to MSRP.


I've been in a post-refresh Equus at the autoshow and it was thoroughly underwhelming, it didn't even feel like it belonged in the flagship segment inside. It felt its price. It felt $20k cheaper than an LS460. Which is fair, but in that context there isn't really much value, is there? When you're "getting what you pay for" per se. At that point it becomes an affordability proposition, and I don't think any $60k car can sell on an affordability proposition, which is why, again, sales are so low.

Incidentally I also compared the LS460 interior to the S550, and the S550 interior in no way shape or form felt $30k better. Maybe $10k, but it was worse in places. As far as interiors go I maintain the LS interior is the best interior in any car for the money. Spend more and the improvement is not linear, spend less and you're downgrading noticeably.

I think the position you're arguing is not sustainable from a product perspective. You are arguing that there are some (evidently small) number of people who don't care about the badge and will opt for the value, but can these people alone keep these cars afloat generation after generation? Is it worth designing, engineering (and I use that term loosely w/ H/K), and marketing two full size V8 RWD flagships for $5k peak sales/year combined? And for prices that will surely reflect an even lower profit margin than with competing cars that also do more volume?

This is not really an "I like the K900 it's an excellent car" argument, it's a "can the K900 be viable at 1300-1500 units a year".

SW17LS

Okay LOL. We get it, you hate Hyundai and Kia.

The K900 was not out for a full year last year, and with Kia doing more promotional stuff with it (NBA, etc) sales will improve.

Why wouldn't it? The car sells in Korea, if it sells a couple hundred units a month here and continues to help Kia's brand image, why wouldn't it go on? The US isn't the end all and be all of the automotive world.

$10,000 on a $75,000 LS is 13%, thats a HUGE discount. Thats with zero negotiation too, thats me walking into the dealer, saying I want and LS, and thats the price. Be a little non biased.

You need to DRIVE a car to say whether or not its a good car. You hate the car (obviously) so thats obviously coloring your perceptions. I am a HUGE Lexus fan. I have been a loyal Lexus customer for 17 years. I don't think the Equus feels $20k cheaper than the LS, and it certainly doesn't drive $20k cheaper. Its about 90% there, and in reality I think it rides better than the LS460, more similar to the LS430.

LMAO! You're nuts. I love the LS, its probably my favorite car on the road and I will own one again someday, but the S550 has a worlds better interior than the LS, there is NO cost cutting anywhere in the S Class, from a design, materials, feel, and look perspective it is heads and shoulders above the LS. The S550 is also not $30k more than the LS. It again is only a LWB car, and comes base highly optioned. The LS460L starts at $78,820, the S550 starts at $94,400. A difference of $15,580. You will also find that the S at that price is more highly optioned than the LS, which further closes that gap.

I'm an LS460 buyer at a high $70s-$80k MSRP discounted $10k. If I were going to spend $90k, no way I would choose the LS460L over the S550.

We're all Lexus fans, but we don't do Lexus any favors when we don't recognize a superior vehicle when it exists. Lexus needs to up their ante in this segment CONSIDERABLY. Just look at sales figures. Its not just about the badge, there was a time when the LS sold in parity or outsold the S Class, now the S Class outsells it nearly 4 to 1 despite MUCH higher average transaction prices. The S Class is a superior vehicle. You can't call sales figures as gospel when using them against a car you dislike, but ignore them when they're used against a car you like.

Again...the cars sell in their home market. They aren't just designed for here. Plus, the added benefit to the brand as a whole to have these cars at the top has to be taken into account.

LexBob2

By any measure, or argument sales of the K900 (Equus too) aren't stellar. Hyundai stuck with the Genesis early on when sales of that model weren't too hot either and they sold 2500 in the US in January. If that is their MO odds are they'll do the same with these two models. It will be interesting to see how they are doing in another model year or two.

bitkahuna

iTrader: (20)

every car i've owned (many brands) has had batteries (many brands) die around 3 years at a time.

fact check:
251 land cruisers sold last month.
339 k900 and equus sold last month.

SW17LS

One thing to consider when it comes to Equus sales, is that not every Hyundai dealer can sell the Equus. I live in Metro DC, a lot of car dealers, a lot of affluence, the closest dealer that sells the Equus is about 35 miles away from me...which is a haul. I have 3 other Hyundai dealers within 10 miles...none sell the Equus. Another reason for lower sales, you have to plan some in order to drive one.

bitkahuna

iTrader: (20)

maybe you guys are representative of an opinion in canada, because that's no longer the opinion in the u.s.

yeah the k900 and equus haven't sold great for a number of reasons, like, did you know NOT MANY kia dealers even sell the k900?

and for sure it's true that not many 60k+ luxury sedan buyers are going to walk into a kia/hyundai dealer. i also doubt lease rates are great and the majority of these types of sedans are LEASED.

and for all your bashing of k900/equus sales vs. the ls460, you guys do realize the mercedes s class outsells the ls 2 or 3 to one each month (and is much more expensive)?

the new genesis sedan on the other hand seems to be making a dent. hardly scientific but i've seen a BUNCH in florida. every one i've seen looks classy and has great presence whether parked or moving. looks like they almost doubled sales in jan vs. a year ago. http://www.hyundainews.com/us/en/med...-january-sales
it also outsold the 4gs by 50%.

S2000toIS350

I sat in a K900 today at the Chicago Auto Show and the car is quite nice, particularly for the folks in the rear seat.

They had a nicely done tuner car as well.

I am not going anywhere near comparing it to an LS but will certainly say it is a very nice machine.

Toys4RJill

And that I can totally respect.

mmarshall

Yes, that's a good point, SW. But Hyundai seems to have at least (partially) addressed that problem now. First, more local dealerships, now, at least on the VA side of the Potomac, seem to handle the Equus, in case you or someone interested in a one wants to take a look. (when I first went to look at and write up the Equus several years go, I did so at the small Alexandria Hyundai shop, about 20 miles or so from my house, which was not a very impressive place). Second, on Hyundai's "Find a Dealer" function on their web-site, after you enter your zip code and search-range, there is now a small "Authorized Equus-dealer) box you can check to narrow it down to just those shops. Though I'm not sure about suburban MD, at least the majority of the Hyundai shops in suburban VA now handle the Equus (in fact, my next-door neighbor, a nice Korean lady, got one not long ago, and loves it).

spwolf

it is very complicated topic that cant be discussed in such broad terms.

For instance, S class is outselling everything by 2x right now... Or that Genesis includes 25k Coupe model... or that both K900 and Equus are selling way, way below Hyundai targets in the USA.

In any case, what has became clear is that Hyundai is not direct Toyota/Lexus competitor... for past 10 years, every news article automatically assumed that Asians will compete against Asians, but in reality, Hyundai never made a dent in Toyota sales, however it has certainly hurt lower cost brands in USA and Europe - which are American and European manufacturers (Ford, GM, Fiat, PSA).

So the whole competing thing is kind of moot point these days when Toyota, MB and BMW are recording some of the best profits and sales in the history, with Toyota having the best sales and the best profits ever in the history (and no, Yen isnt lowest ever - it is still 20% higher than what it was in 90s), while lower cost brands like Ford/GM/PSA/Fiat and struggling financially with their profits and sales. Hyundai just announced drop in profits by 22% due to competition, and has lost market share in USA steadily. KIA has raised sales in the US in 2014, but it has hurt them financially with profit down 54%. And won has slid against the USD too.



I have noticed that automotive news writers now understand the above, and usually dont compare them directly - previously every new Hyundai had big headlines about Toyota going down soon. That time has passed... new Sonata and Elantra sell 2.5x less than Camry and Corolla these days.


p.s. when analysts compile average incentives for models, they also calculate cheap leases as incentives. This is why we see them displaying huge average incentives on European vehicles for instance. They are not clueless about leases like what some people here think.

mmarshall

QFT. An excellent point, SW. I think you just summed up this entire thread (and Car & Driver's own test-results, which was the source of this thread) in one simple sentence.