Lexus debuts 2016 GS F
01-25-15, 08:13 AM
#586
Pole Position
so i was looking at the m5 page here...
http://www.bmwusa.com/Standard/Conte...M5SedanRD.aspx
essentially it's 80 more HP and probably $20K more than the GS-F will be. but the M5 is nearly 4400lbs. they're both RWD, both have fancy differential. the M5 is 7 speed DCT and the GS-F will have the already known to be quick and effective IS-F 8 speed.
you know, i don't think this GS-F is going to be THAT far off the M5 in performance, and for $20K+ less, it might end up just being a real bargain.
before we start again with it not having the same hp, perhaps we should wait for the test drives and results...
i put the e63 on another level because the amg awd is going to make traction and applying power a whole bunch better.
http://www.bmwusa.com/Standard/Conte...M5SedanRD.aspx
essentially it's 80 more HP and probably $20K more than the GS-F will be. but the M5 is nearly 4400lbs. they're both RWD, both have fancy differential. the M5 is 7 speed DCT and the GS-F will have the already known to be quick and effective IS-F 8 speed.
you know, i don't think this GS-F is going to be THAT far off the M5 in performance, and for $20K+ less, it might end up just being a real bargain.
before we start again with it not having the same hp, perhaps we should wait for the test drives and results...
i put the e63 on another level because the amg awd is going to make traction and applying power a whole bunch better.
Yes GS-F is only 400lbs lighter (with fully loaded drivetrain) and RC-F has only advantage of 60hp. See. Its not enough. Apparently in the entry luxury performance category its all about the weight while in midsize performance segments its all about the horsepower. And if somehow that doesn't work our in BMWs way then you can always claim the torque advantage and how suddenly its all about the torque and not horsepower anymore. Yeah same torque that transformed M3 from a precise esthetic surgeon into a butcher of slaughtered pigs on the road. According to a "purist" Chris Harris today is all about skidding all over the place, small displacement turbos, lightweight chassis and giant torque when he reviewed RC-F which of course has none of those things hence it came from 2008. That's exactly why he loves his GT3 so much cause its not composed at all, it has loads of torque and small displacement engine with twin turbos.... right. Oh but its light.
01-25-15, 01:58 PM
#588
so i was looking at the m5 page here...
http://www.bmwusa.com/Standard/Conte...M5SedanRD.aspx
essentially it's 80 more HP and probably $20K more than the GS-F will be. but the M5 is nearly 4400lbs. they're both RWD, both have fancy differential. the M5 is 7 speed DCT and the GS-F will have the already known to be quick and effective IS-F 8 speed.
you know, i don't think this GS-F is going to be THAT far off the M5 in performance, and for $20K+ less, it might end up just being a real bargain.
before we start again with it not having the same hp, perhaps we should wait for the test drives and results...
i put the e63 on another level because the amg awd is going to make traction and applying power a whole bunch better.
http://www.bmwusa.com/Standard/Conte...M5SedanRD.aspx
essentially it's 80 more HP and probably $20K more than the GS-F will be. but the M5 is nearly 4400lbs. they're both RWD, both have fancy differential. the M5 is 7 speed DCT and the GS-F will have the already known to be quick and effective IS-F 8 speed.
you know, i don't think this GS-F is going to be THAT far off the M5 in performance, and for $20K+ less, it might end up just being a real bargain.
before we start again with it not having the same hp, perhaps we should wait for the test drives and results...
i put the e63 on another level because the amg awd is going to make traction and applying power a whole bunch better.
01-25-15, 02:00 PM
#589
Sorry for the interruption, but I'd like to ask if there's a thread or any info on the regular GS refresh. I've been roughly following this thread, but don't recall seeing anything. A search pulls up nothing. I was under the impression we'd be seeing a facelifted GS along with the GS-F.
TIA
TIA
01-25-15, 03:16 PM
#590
Pole Position
I would actually call it huge since the prev gen didn't really have a MMC. I don't recall any Lexus sedan besides LS to get this kind of facelift treatment.
01-25-15, 03:30 PM
#591
Lexus Fanatic
iTrader: (20)
That doesn't matter now. All it matters is that GS-F is 90hp underpowered, just like RC-F was 500lbs overweight (nobody mentions that 99% of M4 on sale are over 3700lbs instead of quoted 3500lb but again that doesn't matter).
Yes GS-F is only 400lbs lighter (with fully loaded drivetrain) and RC-F has only advantage of 60hp. See. Its not enough. Apparently in the entry luxury performance category its all about the weight while in midsize performance segments its all about the horsepower. And if somehow that doesn't work our in BMWs way then you can always claim the torque advantage and how suddenly its all about the torque and not horsepower anymore. Yeah same torque that transformed M3 from a precise esthetic surgeon into a butcher of slaughtered pigs on the road. According to a "purist" Chris Harris today is all about skidding all over the place, small displacement turbos, lightweight chassis and giant torque when he reviewed RC-F which of course has none of those things hence it came from 2008. That's exactly why he loves his GT3 so much cause its not composed at all, it has loads of torque and small displacement engine with twin turbos.... right. Oh but its light.
Yes GS-F is only 400lbs lighter (with fully loaded drivetrain) and RC-F has only advantage of 60hp. See. Its not enough. Apparently in the entry luxury performance category its all about the weight while in midsize performance segments its all about the horsepower. And if somehow that doesn't work our in BMWs way then you can always claim the torque advantage and how suddenly its all about the torque and not horsepower anymore. Yeah same torque that transformed M3 from a precise esthetic surgeon into a butcher of slaughtered pigs on the road. According to a "purist" Chris Harris today is all about skidding all over the place, small displacement turbos, lightweight chassis and giant torque when he reviewed RC-F which of course has none of those things hence it came from 2008. That's exactly why he loves his GT3 so much cause its not composed at all, it has loads of torque and small displacement engine with twin turbos.... right. Oh but its light.
oh and i don't like chris harris' reviews either.
01-25-15, 04:41 PM
#592
Pole Position
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BMW F10 will more or less be history by the date Lexus starts to sell and deliver the GS-F ( about a year from now ) Same with the E class. GS-F arrived to late, it will most likely compete with the new series from MB and BMW, and thats not a good thing, its hard as it is.
01-25-15, 05:17 PM
#593
Lexus Fanatic
The changes were more subtle than this, but a new part is a new part whether its dramatically different or not.
01-25-15, 08:54 PM
#594
i look at it two ways. sales number is definitely one metric but if that's the case it won't be pretty on lexus at all. isf doesn't sell in volume compared to m3 at all but i don't think it's a bad car at all either. the 2nd metric is just how cars compare to each other everything considered
of course everyone can argue the meaning of F, trust me lexus is probably trying to define it now too. however, public perception imho is probably bigger than anything and what's going to impact most. like it or not, lexus came out with the F since 2008 and it was enough of a clear message to fight the m and amg (people need to stop lying to themselves otherwise). the isf was close competition to m3 and i like that car a lot. the rcf is close competition to m4 as well imho and i think it's not a bad car either. the lfa obviously is a statement car.
so with that, comes the gsf and to everyone (read, not lexus fan and include those outside of clublexus) it's very logical to think this car goes up against the m5 and e63. it's not in a very good position now imho
i like lexus and i have been buying lexus for good reasons. i think they have done a lot of good things and smart moves. but i don't think i am here to defend their every moves especially when i think they made bad moves. i can easily name few big mistakes they made in past years
3
of course everyone can argue the meaning of F, trust me lexus is probably trying to define it now too. however, public perception imho is probably bigger than anything and what's going to impact most. like it or not, lexus came out with the F since 2008 and it was enough of a clear message to fight the m and amg (people need to stop lying to themselves otherwise). the isf was close competition to m3 and i like that car a lot. the rcf is close competition to m4 as well imho and i think it's not a bad car either. the lfa obviously is a statement car.
so with that, comes the gsf and to everyone (read, not lexus fan and include those outside of clublexus) it's very logical to think this car goes up against the m5 and e63. it's not in a very good position now imho
i like lexus and i have been buying lexus for good reasons. i think they have done a lot of good things and smart moves. but i don't think i am here to defend their every moves especially when i think they made bad moves. i can easily name few big mistakes they made in past years
3
I think we all agree that Lexus has gone head first into challenging the M, AMG. RS (R too), but as you indicate, they are not entering as strongly as most would like-hopefully this is just the infancy stage. I am interested to see what price Lexus puts on this car, and then compare it to the "competition" that the public wants it to. Once again, I bet you will see that Lexus, for its price tag, will offer prospective buyers a good bang for their buck in the GS-F. BUT as you say, in many peoples minds they will still have fallen short of the task at hand.
Public perception is huge, and generally not in Lexus' favor, especially with these sets of cars. To me, their commercials show that they recognize this. I just hope that the LS-F comes to fruition, because for me that could mean leaving the brand for an Audi.
01-26-15, 12:01 AM
#595
Lexus Test Driver
If there is no Lexus info on the regular GS facelift, then it appears they are staggering it's release to milk the situation to their advantage. What we'll hear in another month or two is "a new model will be debuting at such and such autoshow...stay tuned..." That will be the facelift and get everyone guessing again, all of which could have been shown in Detroit along with the F. But why not make each autoshow sound more exciting with an "all new" Lexus debuting? Marketing!
01-26-15, 05:28 AM
#596
If there is no Lexus info on the regular GS facelift, then it appears they are staggering it's release to milk the situation to their advantage. What we'll hear in another month or two is "a new model will be debuting at such and such autoshow...stay tuned..." That will be the facelift and get everyone guessing again, all of which could have been shown in Detroit along with the F. But why not make each autoshow sound more exciting with an "all new" Lexus debuting? Marketing!
01-26-15, 06:40 AM
#597
Pole Position
The previous gen had a new front bumper, new grille, new rear bumper, new mirrors, new wheels, new steering wheel, new gear shift trim inside for its MMC. Thats not a "MMC"?
The changes were more subtle than this, but a new part is a new part whether its dramatically different or not.
The changes were more subtle than this, but a new part is a new part whether its dramatically different or not.
MMC should improve upon a vehicle and that did not happen with previous GS, sales were already down and it looked like they gave up on it. Interior is where the most should have happened regarding facelift but nothing happened.
01-26-15, 07:48 AM
#598
Pole Position
That doesn't matter now. All it matters is that GS-F is 90hp underpowered, just like RC-F was 500lbs overweight (nobody mentions that 99% of M4 on sale are over 3700lbs instead of quoted 3500lb but again that doesn't matter).
Yes GS-F is only 400lbs lighter (with fully loaded drivetrain) and RC-F has only advantage of 60hp. See. Its not enough. Apparently in the entry luxury performance category its all about the weight while in midsize performance segments its all about the horsepower. And if somehow that doesn't work our in BMWs way then you can always claim the torque advantage and how suddenly its all about the torque and not horsepower anymore. Yeah same torque that transformed M3 from a precise esthetic surgeon into a butcher of slaughtered pigs on the road. According to a "purist" Chris Harris today is all about skidding all over the place, small displacement turbos, lightweight chassis and giant torque when he reviewed RC-F which of course has none of those things hence it came from 2008. That's exactly why he loves his GT3 so much cause its not composed at all, it has loads of torque and small displacement engine with twin turbos.... right. Oh but its light.
Yes GS-F is only 400lbs lighter (with fully loaded drivetrain) and RC-F has only advantage of 60hp. See. Its not enough. Apparently in the entry luxury performance category its all about the weight while in midsize performance segments its all about the horsepower. And if somehow that doesn't work our in BMWs way then you can always claim the torque advantage and how suddenly its all about the torque and not horsepower anymore. Yeah same torque that transformed M3 from a precise esthetic surgeon into a butcher of slaughtered pigs on the road. According to a "purist" Chris Harris today is all about skidding all over the place, small displacement turbos, lightweight chassis and giant torque when he reviewed RC-F which of course has none of those things hence it came from 2008. That's exactly why he loves his GT3 so much cause its not composed at all, it has loads of torque and small displacement engine with twin turbos.... right. Oh but its light.
01-26-15, 08:56 AM
#599
it had MMC of course... This gets more updated front end and rear lights, but then interior is almost unchanged... LS is pretty unique in its MMC but thats because Lexus is in between changing design... same goes for this MMC for GS, front end is "drastic" change in order to fit with other just released Lexus vehicle... just like it was on GX or LX.
01-27-15, 10:05 AM
#600
Sales numbers for these niche cars will likely never be in Lexus's favor, and of course that by no means reflects Lexus' producing a bad car, agreed. Lexus has its bread and butter (RX, IS, ES...) as we all know. Lexus (and many of those that buy other "luxury" brands) know that Lexus produces a solid all around product, but they never give you everything you want, whether standard or optioned, sadly. BUT, they do offer many standard upgrades that are expensive options with say BMW. For example in Motor Trends Head to Head of the M4 vs RC-F, the M4 as tested was over 10K more in price, and the Lexus held its own as a first generation item vs a car with a strong lineage. To me, that is impressive on Lexus' part, but still underwhelming as it "finished second."
I think we all agree that Lexus has gone head first into challenging the M, AMG. RS (R too), but as you indicate, they are not entering as strongly as most would like-hopefully this is just the infancy stage. I am interested to see what price Lexus puts on this car, and then compare it to the "competition" that the public wants it to. Once again, I bet you will see that Lexus, for its price tag, will offer prospective buyers a good bang for their buck in the GS-F. BUT as you say, in many peoples minds they will still have fallen short of the task at hand.
Public perception is huge, and generally not in Lexus' favor, especially with these sets of cars. To me, their commercials show that they recognize this. I just hope that the LS-F comes to fruition, because for me that could mean leaving the brand for an Audi.
I think we all agree that Lexus has gone head first into challenging the M, AMG. RS (R too), but as you indicate, they are not entering as strongly as most would like-hopefully this is just the infancy stage. I am interested to see what price Lexus puts on this car, and then compare it to the "competition" that the public wants it to. Once again, I bet you will see that Lexus, for its price tag, will offer prospective buyers a good bang for their buck in the GS-F. BUT as you say, in many peoples minds they will still have fallen short of the task at hand.
Public perception is huge, and generally not in Lexus' favor, especially with these sets of cars. To me, their commercials show that they recognize this. I just hope that the LS-F comes to fruition, because for me that could mean leaving the brand for an Audi.
i actually think lexus entered the competition against m and amg VERY well. i think the isf was a great project and execution, even though it didn't get to m level in the beginning. but i love how they get into the game. then the lfa, who can even deny its impact? even the rcf i think is a great addition. so imho up till that point it has been great on the f name / badge.
to me the spec of the gsf is actually pretty good. i think it will be a great fun car to drive. however, i just don't see it being enough to go against the current m5 and e63. it will be a wonderful car (price considered) compared to the m3 and 550i imho, i think the gsf will walk away clean from those. so yes i think it's a wonderful car. but to me is it wonderful enough to carry the gsf badge? no.
people can argue all day "it's just a badge" but i will laugh all day "it's THE badge". bmw could have gone without m and mb without amg, but they wouldn't have been so successful in their image and status. when it comes to luxury market, it's all about the badge and status.
just doing power to weight ratio and time around a course sure is an indication, but when i think about it, it can get silly because m3/4 and c63 of course will likely win over larger heavier cars, even when those have more power. so i guess with the same arguments here, it's like saying m3/4 and c63 are far superior cars over their larger brothers. i am not sure about that. similarly with the gsf and how people keep saying it's silly to compare to m5? i honestly think it will go very well against m3.
and you know what? it might not bad a bad thing at all? back in 1998, lexus put up a mid-size sedan with more power and faster than the bmw m3. that was a WONDERFUL win. they called it gs400
