Nospinzone

If this really works, I think it puts the lithium ion powered cars out of business.

http://www.techtimes.com/articles/23...us-ls-fcev.htm

peteharvey

The LS fuel cell is certainly 200 kg lighter than an LS600h V8 gasoline-electric hybrid, but only because the latter is a V8.

However, how much performance can this LS fuel cell vehicle deliver compared to the LS600h?
Because the Mirai fuel cell does 0-60 in a paltry 9.0 seconds.

Meanwhile the Mirai's range is only 300 miles, the range on the LS fuel cell is even worse at only 239 miles.



The Tesla Model S is a 2,100 kg battery powered electric car doing 0-60 in 5.9/5.4/4.2 seconds depending on the model, with a range of 335-426 km, and a charge time as quick as 1 hour. Here, the underpan batteries take up 100 mm of vertical space, so either the cabin headroom is compromised, or the car must be taller affecting the CofDA. However, the Tesla S has two trunks, including one under the bonnet.

The Toyota Mirai is a 1,850 kg hydrogen fuel cell powered electric car, and does 0-60 in 9.0 seconds with a 300 mile range, and takes 5 minutes to refuel the hydrogen. The hydrogen fuel cell is under the front seats, while the hydrogen tank is under the rear seat, and behind the rear seat too.

A typical gasoline-electric hybrid like the Lexus GS450h at 1,910 kg does 0-60 in what 5.4 seconds? It must a range of well over 600 km; even towards 900 km. Typically, the battery is stored behind the rear seat etc.

By comparison, a conventional gasoline powered piston engine Lexus GS350 is only 1,650-1,740 kg, 0-60 in say 5.8 seconds, and a range of 600 km, with little loss of cabin nor boot space.


No wonder we've been using the gasoline powered naturally aspirated engine for over 100 years.
With a more efficient small capacity turbo coming second by compromising the throttle response, flat torque curve and durability.
For now, I think the gasoline-electric hybrids must come third, especially because oil has fallen to new lows in prices.
Meanwhile all these new technologies like hybrids, hydrogen fuel cells, and electric cars are so "overweight", and will really affect the handling and chassis dynamics, yet the range is not quite there, and even the straight-line performance.

Finally, none of these three new technologies are truly zero emissions if they use fossil fuels like the hybrid's gasoline, or if coal is used to produce the hydrogen, or coal is used to produce the electricity to recharge the batteries...

Vh_Supra26

iTrader: (1)

Thanks for sharing, but it has been posted.

https://www.clublexus.com/forums/car...-report-5.html

mordecai

I could see the LS having a FCEV model. It will push the car industry just like how the LS600h changed the industry.

RNM GS3

Lexus better get some v8 turbos going....their flagship LS is anemic in the powertrain area compared to MB BMW Audi Jaguar etc

RNM GS3

Is this a joke?

LS600h is a huge failure.
Had zero impact on anything .

Tesla. Model S u can yes changed the industry.

GQD_GS4

Agree

(Ten characters)

Vladi

True to that. There is a big reason or few big reasons why leading manufacturers have no interest to switch to EV and battery supply is not one of them neither is their conclusion that consumer are not interested in it. Fuel cell technology still depends on "fuel" and there is a really nice transition path setup by automobile manufacturers gasoline partners that we will see in the future like hydrogen boosted gasoline engines. Its already happening in the truck industry and technology is supported and researched by Exxon. This will take place very soon, probably in this decade, and sometime in the far future when today's oil providers setup hydrogen station infrastructure we will see cars like Mirai go mainstream. No conspiracy here just common sense business between the partners.

Tesla is very vulnerable and whole auto industry would prefer them to stay niche manufacturer, anything more than that will cause trouble. The only other manufacturer that is considering going pure EV very seriously is Mitsubishi, they are already producing batteries and ramping up the production for the updated Outlander (the best PHEV vehicle currently on the market) to reach 60,000 units next year from current 50,000. Also more advanced PHEVs are planned with a double and triple the electric range of the current Outlander.

spwolf

LS is flagship hybrid... it never is/was supposed to sell millions. At that point, nobody thought hybrids would go into premium luxury vehicles, they were reserved for cars like Prius.

Now you have every manufacturer selling these in every flagship.

So yeah, it did prove that hybrids in premium cars are possible, and yes A8, 7 series and S class have hybrid versions today.

So of course, Toyota hybrids did revolutionize the industry with 1,400,000 sales every year :-).
Tesla sells 20k-25k per year and we still dont have other EVs from luxury manufacturers that "challenge" it.

So while Tesla is awesome and proof that new manufacturer can make it work, Tesla did not change the industry at all...

spwolf

This is a good analysis of current state of things. When it comes to the article, this appeared in Japanese mags around few weeks ago and we had it posted here.

Not all of the info seems like it could be possible.

Especially weight - FCV is also a hybrid, so it has all the hybrid parts same as before. Mirai is based on Camry platform basically and LS FCV to be only 250kg heavier than it, means that they somehow drastically reduced the weight of LS, as currently fuel cell stack and two fuel tanks weight more than petrol engine, as we could see in Mirai.

When it comes to speed, with 290hp electric engine, it will be fast enough for sure. Currently Mirai has most powerful fuel cell stack, and this will create even more powerful one. Battery should act as a buffer between demand and supply, so 204hp fuel cell stack should power 290hp electric motor nicely enough.

Aside from weight, which seems questionable, as it is too light for LS, is range. 239 miles is under JC08, where Mirai has 500 mile range. So it should have some 150-180 miles under EPA rules. Which seems weird because FCV fuel storage is nowhere as expensive as batteries, so you can add more of it at relatively low price, as long as you have space to put it in.

Also, I would not call 300-500 mile range small for Mirai... with 3 minute refuel, it does not need more range at all. And it could be easily extended as said above, just not needed.

If this happens, it will be good for development of fuel cell vehicles. It wont sell in tens of thousands, i suppose it will be mainly for Japan where they will have hundreds of stations by the time this thing hits, and it will help promote the technology.

Whole point of fuel cells is that Toyota assumes as of now, that costs of adding FC system to standard vehicle would equal to cost of hybridising it, by 2018, with same fuel cell tech as they have now, just production optimization.

If that happens, it will certainly "revolutionize" the industry. Japan will have 100 stations by end of 2015, so thats not going to be a problem long term.

Of course, everything that goes into FCV aside from fuel cell stack and fuel tanks, is the same as in hybrids and EVs. So 290hp electric motors in FCV mean that they could happen in hybrid, plugin hybrid or ev vehicles from Toyota as well. You could have LS600h 40-50 mile plugin hybrid with same 290hp electric motor selling on other markets as well.

gengar

You are seriously comparing a low-volume flagship to the only model an entire manufacturer makes?

Within the next two years, Lexus is going to hit one million total hybrid luxury vehicles sold, if you want to talk about "changing the industry".

Vladi

Well in all honesty Toyota did revolutionize the EV and hybrid world with Rav4 EV, we all know how it got killed, and second gen Prius. To this day Toyotas hybrid powertrain is still the most refined and seamless when compared to the competitors, especially Germans. Its so easy for Germans to dismiss hybrids due to poor sales when reality is their solutions are inferior to Toyotas. Even new S-class S300 will be clunky as there is a too obvious separation in operation between diesel and hybrid system, at least that's how it is in E300 right now and since its the identical setup don't know if that could change drastically. LS600h is still the grand daddy of them all when it comes how you package the hybrid.

In defense to Tesla their Model S has proven that customers prefer it over any premium mid-size to full-size sedan hybrid in the world and Lexus is loosing that battle as well. Model S total sales to date worldwide are 45,000 while being on sale for only under 3 years. Combined LS600h/GS450h(current & previous gen)/GS300h to date are 75,000 and that's over a span of 8 years.

On the other hand Model X will not be able to overcome RXh numbers anytime soon. RXh and CTh are the bread and butter hynrids for Lexus for now, expect NXh to make a killing as well. Surprisingly ISh is on a very good path to become the best selling hybrid sedan in Lexus lineup and pass ESh soon, interesting.

RNM GS3

Sales figures are only part of the reason for why the LSh is a huge failure.

The main reason is how Lexus positioned it as Performance hybrid but in reality it didn't have great performance nor great fuel economy - so there was no point to this car for a consumer plus it was way overpriced.

What Tesla did is INCREDIBLE - a manufacturer with no experience put the whole auto industry on notice because it delivered a high performance, great looking, Luxury sedan that used zero gas.
That is what i call changing the industry not what a waste of resources that the LS600h was.

Lexus didn't change the industry in terms of hybrids at all. Toyota did with the Prius.
What Lexus model is known for being a great hybrid?
RXh, ESh, CT - We used to have RX400h but only reason we got it bec it was cheaper to lease than the RX350 at that time.

bitkahuna

iTrader: (20)

that's if you consider the CT a luxury car.

Sulu

The LSh is a failure? How so? It introduced and proved that a hybrid powertrain could drive a luxury flagship. Now all the Germans have jumped on the bandwagon, not wanting to be left out in the cold. Lexus' failing is not with the LSh as a vehicle but not tinkering with it, adding a little bit of new gadgets every year or so, which the Germans are very good at; the Germans are very good at blowing their own horn, which Toyota / Lexus, being a very typical, conservative Japanese company, is not. That is their failing.

What Tesla did is NOT that incredible. You could not expect the mainstream auto manufacturers, including MB, BMW, VW//Audi, even Toyota/Lexus to do it, with all the assets they have invested in the traditional ICE drivetrain. To really shake things up requires a newcomer that has no investment (no money and no intellectual property) in existing technology. Teslas are different and successful as EVs because their platforms were designed from the start to be EVs and not converted ICE platforms.

Yes, BMW is trying EVs now with their i-brand, which have been designed from the start as EVs, not converted ICE platforms. It takes, proportionally, more courage and investment for a traditional automaker like BMW to introduce something completely new than it does for a completely new automaker like Tesla to introduce new technology. But let's see who, in the end, is ultimately successful: Is it Tesla, that has been courting the established automakers, like Toyota, MB and BMW (trying to get more investment) or will it be the established automakers, who, by waiting, can later introduce EVs that are backed by the legacy of an existing, successful, full-line automaker?