2016 Cadillac CTS-V arrives with 640 hp, 200-mph top speed
12-22-14, 06:14 AM
#16
Lexus Fanatic
iTrader: (20)
12-22-14, 07:37 AM
#22
To be fair, this CTS V is very impressive on paper and I have no doubt that it may well prove to be the best performance sedan of the group (incredible engine, low-ish weight and Cadillac's amazing magnetic ride control technology.)
However, since everyone is murdering the GS F based on fictional specs, lets take a quick look at the CTS V's competitive set:
Cadillac CTS V:
4,150 lbs
640hp/630 lb-ft of torque
0-60 in 3.7 seconds
HP-to-weight ratio: 6.5 lbs per hp
Audi S6:
4,398 lbs
420hp/406 lb-ft of torque
0-60 in 4.5 seconds (tested at 3.7)
HP-to-weight ratio: 10.5 lbs per hp
Audi RS7:
4,475 lbs
560hp/516 lb-ft of torque
0-60 in 3.7 seconds (tested at 3.4)
HP-to-weight ratio: 8 lbs per hp
BMW M5:
4,387 lbs
560 - 575hp/500 lb-ft of torque
0-60 in 4.2 seconds (tested at 3.7)
HP-to-weight ratio: 7.7 lbs per hp
Mercedes-Benz E63 AMG 4Matic
4,674 lbs
550hp/531 lb-ft of torque
0-60 in 3.6 seconds (tested at 4.0)
HP-to-weight ratio: 8.5 lbs per hp
Jaguar XFR-S
4,380 lbs
550 hp/502 lb-ft of torque
0-60 in 4.4 seconds
HP-to-weight ratio: 8 lbs per hp
Jaguar XFR
4,134 lbs
510 hp/ 461 lb-ft of torque
0-60 in 4.7 seconds (tested at 4.0)
HP-to-weight ratio: 8.1 lbs per hp
If you are a spec racer, the CTS V quite simply blows everything else out of the water. Period. Anyone spec racing these cars will list their M5s and E63s for sale TODAY and place an order for a CTS V. After all, why on earth would you buy a car with less horsepower than one that is available with as much as 640 hp? Fools!
However, in the real world, if you bought a CTS V, there's a very good chance that an 80hp less powerful M5 or 220hp less powerful S6 could keep up with you nose-to-nose from a dig. Don't try lining up with an RS7, as that Audi has been tested as low as 3.4 seconds 0-60. The Jaguar XFR-S's 4.4 second estimate for 0-60 has been called "conservative" by most magazines, and the "lowly 510hp" XFR has been clocked .7 seconds faster than the manufacturer's estimated time of 4.7 seconds. Do the math there, and the XFR-S could also be door-to-door with your CTS V early in a race, though the CTS V would surely start to walk away as the pavement opens up. Let's also not lose sight of the fact that Mercedes quotes the E63 AMG 4Matic's 0-60 time faster than what Cadillac quotes for the CTS V... interesting!
If this seems like a heavy dose of alphabet soup mixed in with senseless numbers, that's pretty much exactly what it is. The predominant thought process here and elsewhere seems to be that people who own an S6, XFR or XFR-S will be laughed out of Chilis on a Friday night because they could have bought something faster in an M5 or E63. The reality is that many of these actual buyers are looking for something that moves the needle a little further for their favorite brand, or an emotional design that appeals to their eye, or an overall experience/package that says, "Gotta have it."
The guy who bought his first A4 ten years ago, has been happily upgrading to A6s and just got the VP promotion and wants something a little more raw... He buys an S6. The guy who has had a few Jaguars but left the brand for Lexus or Mercedes sees something with some attitude and grit and comes back to Jag for an XFR. The guy who owned LSs for two decades, has been very happy with Lexus, just sent his last kid off to college and wants something with more performance and edge... he buys a GS F.
This is how people really buy these cars. They do not come into the BMW dealership, slap down the Cadillac CTS V press release on a sales manager's desk and demand that BMW buys back their M5 Competition Pack because it's no longer the fastest car on the block. They do not jump onto mbworld and trash talk the E63 4Matic the day that the CTS V comes out, same for bimmerfest and the M5.
I know it's a lot of fun to sit behind a computer screen and compare specs, but when you factor in real world buying decisions and you talk to actual buyers (even in this class of car), specs are not as important as we make them seem. A lot of it is emotional and about how the car looks, feels and sounds. What is the overall experience like? Sure, it's fast. From the driver's seat, an M5 or E63 or XFR or S6 all feel similarly "fast" and your average buyer doesn't bring performance equipment on a test drive, or make an excel chart of quoted/tested performance figures.
If anything, the list above represents a very interesting and absolutely distinct array of flavors and tastes for the discerning buyer: rear wheel drive, all wheel drive, turbocharged, supercharged, raw straight-line acceleration, cornering prowess, Jaguar, Cadillac, Audi, Mercedes, BMW, the list goes on.
My point in this long post is that if you're going to disregard the GS F based on the "around 500 hp" spec, then I assume that with Cadillac now throwing the gauntlet at 640hp, everything else is "less than" as well. However, the reality is that BMW will continue to sell M5s, Mercedes will still move E63s, Audi will keep building and selling S6s and with a car like the GS F, Lexus will draw a whole new type of buyer - probably many of them from inside the brand - but probably also a handful who used to have modded GS 430s and left for an M5, or someone who is sick of AMG repair bills and is willing to give up some horsepower for reliability.
Congratulations to Cadillac for building one of the most powerful sedans on the planet -ever. Thank you to BMW and Mercedes who drove this segment for decades and made it what it is today. Kudos to Audi and Jaguar for jumping in and offering unique formulas that have appealed to their buyers and spiced up the segment. Welcome, Lexus, to the party. If you can't look at all of these cars and appreciate them for what they offer or represent - from 420 to 640 hp - then you're worse a fanboy than anyone.
However, since everyone is murdering the GS F based on fictional specs, lets take a quick look at the CTS V's competitive set:
Cadillac CTS V:
4,150 lbs
640hp/630 lb-ft of torque
0-60 in 3.7 seconds
HP-to-weight ratio: 6.5 lbs per hp
Audi S6:
4,398 lbs
420hp/406 lb-ft of torque
0-60 in 4.5 seconds (tested at 3.7)
HP-to-weight ratio: 10.5 lbs per hp
Audi RS7:
4,475 lbs
560hp/516 lb-ft of torque
0-60 in 3.7 seconds (tested at 3.4)
HP-to-weight ratio: 8 lbs per hp
BMW M5:
4,387 lbs
560 - 575hp/500 lb-ft of torque
0-60 in 4.2 seconds (tested at 3.7)
HP-to-weight ratio: 7.7 lbs per hp
Mercedes-Benz E63 AMG 4Matic
4,674 lbs
550hp/531 lb-ft of torque
0-60 in 3.6 seconds (tested at 4.0)
HP-to-weight ratio: 8.5 lbs per hp
Jaguar XFR-S
4,380 lbs
550 hp/502 lb-ft of torque
0-60 in 4.4 seconds
HP-to-weight ratio: 8 lbs per hp
Jaguar XFR
4,134 lbs
510 hp/ 461 lb-ft of torque
0-60 in 4.7 seconds (tested at 4.0)
HP-to-weight ratio: 8.1 lbs per hp
If you are a spec racer, the CTS V quite simply blows everything else out of the water. Period. Anyone spec racing these cars will list their M5s and E63s for sale TODAY and place an order for a CTS V. After all, why on earth would you buy a car with less horsepower than one that is available with as much as 640 hp? Fools!
However, in the real world, if you bought a CTS V, there's a very good chance that an 80hp less powerful M5 or 220hp less powerful S6 could keep up with you nose-to-nose from a dig. Don't try lining up with an RS7, as that Audi has been tested as low as 3.4 seconds 0-60. The Jaguar XFR-S's 4.4 second estimate for 0-60 has been called "conservative" by most magazines, and the "lowly 510hp" XFR has been clocked .7 seconds faster than the manufacturer's estimated time of 4.7 seconds. Do the math there, and the XFR-S could also be door-to-door with your CTS V early in a race, though the CTS V would surely start to walk away as the pavement opens up. Let's also not lose sight of the fact that Mercedes quotes the E63 AMG 4Matic's 0-60 time faster than what Cadillac quotes for the CTS V... interesting!
If this seems like a heavy dose of alphabet soup mixed in with senseless numbers, that's pretty much exactly what it is. The predominant thought process here and elsewhere seems to be that people who own an S6, XFR or XFR-S will be laughed out of Chilis on a Friday night because they could have bought something faster in an M5 or E63. The reality is that many of these actual buyers are looking for something that moves the needle a little further for their favorite brand, or an emotional design that appeals to their eye, or an overall experience/package that says, "Gotta have it."
The guy who bought his first A4 ten years ago, has been happily upgrading to A6s and just got the VP promotion and wants something a little more raw... He buys an S6. The guy who has had a few Jaguars but left the brand for Lexus or Mercedes sees something with some attitude and grit and comes back to Jag for an XFR. The guy who owned LSs for two decades, has been very happy with Lexus, just sent his last kid off to college and wants something with more performance and edge... he buys a GS F.
This is how people really buy these cars. They do not come into the BMW dealership, slap down the Cadillac CTS V press release on a sales manager's desk and demand that BMW buys back their M5 Competition Pack because it's no longer the fastest car on the block. They do not jump onto mbworld and trash talk the E63 4Matic the day that the CTS V comes out, same for bimmerfest and the M5.
I know it's a lot of fun to sit behind a computer screen and compare specs, but when you factor in real world buying decisions and you talk to actual buyers (even in this class of car), specs are not as important as we make them seem. A lot of it is emotional and about how the car looks, feels and sounds. What is the overall experience like? Sure, it's fast. From the driver's seat, an M5 or E63 or XFR or S6 all feel similarly "fast" and your average buyer doesn't bring performance equipment on a test drive, or make an excel chart of quoted/tested performance figures.
If anything, the list above represents a very interesting and absolutely distinct array of flavors and tastes for the discerning buyer: rear wheel drive, all wheel drive, turbocharged, supercharged, raw straight-line acceleration, cornering prowess, Jaguar, Cadillac, Audi, Mercedes, BMW, the list goes on.
My point in this long post is that if you're going to disregard the GS F based on the "around 500 hp" spec, then I assume that with Cadillac now throwing the gauntlet at 640hp, everything else is "less than" as well. However, the reality is that BMW will continue to sell M5s, Mercedes will still move E63s, Audi will keep building and selling S6s and with a car like the GS F, Lexus will draw a whole new type of buyer - probably many of them from inside the brand - but probably also a handful who used to have modded GS 430s and left for an M5, or someone who is sick of AMG repair bills and is willing to give up some horsepower for reliability.
Congratulations to Cadillac for building one of the most powerful sedans on the planet -ever. Thank you to BMW and Mercedes who drove this segment for decades and made it what it is today. Kudos to Audi and Jaguar for jumping in and offering unique formulas that have appealed to their buyers and spiced up the segment. Welcome, Lexus, to the party. If you can't look at all of these cars and appreciate them for what they offer or represent - from 420 to 640 hp - then you're worse a fanboy than anyone.
12-22-14, 08:04 AM
#23
Lexus Test Driver
I would love to see the CTS-V vs Charger Hellcat race in 1/4 mile and top speed test.
Obviously on the track CTS-V would run circle around it.
My ONLY complaint is when are the Speed Laws gonna be adgusted in the US so we can actually experience these cars like they do on the Autobahn.
Obviously on the track CTS-V would run circle around it.
My ONLY complaint is when are the Speed Laws gonna be adgusted in the US so we can actually experience these cars like they do on the Autobahn.
12-22-14, 08:16 AM
#24
Lead Lap
Stupid nitpick in otherwise very insightful post.
12-22-14, 08:20 AM
#26
^I see what you mean, and I think there will always be plenty of that activity. That's a healthy debate, I'd say
Above, I was more referring to the fact that this morning, we don't see hoards of people on MBWorld or Bimmerfest trash talking the E63 and M5 because the CTS V is now available at a significant horsepower advantage
Above, I was more referring to the fact that this morning, we don't see hoards of people on MBWorld or Bimmerfest trash talking the E63 and M5 because the CTS V is now available at a significant horsepower advantage
12-22-14, 08:27 AM
#27
Lexus Test Driver
^I see what you mean, and I think there will always be plenty of that activity. That's a healthy debate, I'd say
Above, I was more referring to the fact that this morning, we don't see hoards of people on MBWorld or Bimmerfest trash talking the E63 and M5 because the CTS V is now available at a significant horsepower advantage
Above, I was more referring to the fact that this morning, we don't see hoards of people on MBWorld or Bimmerfest trash talking the E63 and M5 because the CTS V is now available at a significant horsepower advantage
Their respective AMG and //M cars will have over 600hp to be sure.
ALSO the Germans Greatly underrate the HP of their engines as evidenced by the acceleration results and dynos done to existing M5, RS7, E63amg.
12-22-14, 08:32 AM
#28
Yes, I realize that. I also realize that's 1-2 years away and all we can talk about is the here and now.
I expect that 5GS GS F will have TT V8. And next gen CTS V will probably have north of 700hp. And that next gen XFR-S will probably also be well over 600hp. And...and...and...
I expect that 5GS GS F will have TT V8. And next gen CTS V will probably have north of 700hp. And that next gen XFR-S will probably also be well over 600hp. And...and...and...
12-22-14, 08:37 AM
#30
Lead Lap
^I see what you mean, and I think there will always be plenty of that activity. That's a healthy debate, I'd say
Above, I was more referring to the fact that this morning, we don't see hoards of people on MBWorld or Bimmerfest trash talking the E63 and M5 because the CTS V is now available at a significant horsepower advantage
Above, I was more referring to the fact that this morning, we don't see hoards of people on MBWorld or Bimmerfest trash talking the E63 and M5 because the CTS V is now available at a significant horsepower advantage