Hyundai and Kia to pay record EPA fine
#31
Lead Lap
Well actually you could get close...you'll note for most of the models the rating only went down like 2mpg.
#32
Lexus Fanatic
All right, folks. That's right....Marshall doesn't know what he's talking about. Go ahead and toss all the stones at Hyundai and Kia you want. You'll get your way. Hyundai and Kia will (probably) end up paying the fine and settlement. But don't be naive. Who do you really think is going to end up footing the bill for this settlement? Future car-buyers, that's who......in higher list-prices for Hyundai and Kia products. These vehicles, of course, are head-and-shoulders better in quality than they were years ago. But there's no free lunch....the cost for those better materials and construction had to come from somewhere. Hyundai/Kia list prices, especially for lower-line models, have already risen sharply (especially in the last two years or so) to reflect that now-better quality. While still value-priced compared to some of their competitors, a number of Hyundai and Kia products, again more so with the entry-level models than top-end, are clearly not the exceptional bargains they once were. And you can take it to the bank that this settlement will mean only more list-price inflation in the future.
#33
Lexus Fanatic
Thread Starter
iTrader: (20)
But didn't Toyota pay a BILLION for the 'unintended acceleration nonesense?
#34
Lexus Fanatic
Originally Posted by bitkahuna
But didn't Toyota pay a BILLION for the 'unintended acceleration nonesense?
Last edited by mmarshall; 11-06-14 at 08:03 PM.
#35
Lexus Fanatic
While I agree that the way Toyota was treated and harassed by Congress and the NHTSA was probably excessive and uncalled for, it's also fair to say that no one died because his or her Kia didn't get exactly the same gas mileage printed on the window-sticker. Now, of course, that doesn't prove that the reason people died in those Toyota/Lexus crashes was because of the cars themselves...human error or ignorance was obviously a strong possibility. But, even if the 1B judgement wasn't justified or applicable at that time (it probably wasn't), Toyota/Lexus was cost-cuting in other ways on the materials they used on their cars, while Hyundai/Kia were doing just the opposite.
#36
Lexus Fanatic
Now you're trying way way too hard to try and defend Hyundai. Poor company, they have to play the market fairly I hope they don't go bankrupt. BTW for all the "cost cutting" you claim in happening somehow Toyota is still the most reliable brand and Hyundai is way down on the list.
#37
While I agree that the way Toyota was treated and harassed by Congress and the NHTSA was probably excessive and uncalled for, it's also fair to say that no one died because his or her Kia didn't get exactly the same gas mileage printed on the window-sticker. Now, of course, that doesn't prove that the reason people died in those Toyota/Lexus crashes was because of the cars themselves...human error or ignorance was obviously a strong possibility. But, even if the 1B judgement wasn't justified or applicable at that time (it probably wasn't), Toyota/Lexus was cost-cuting in other ways on the materials they used on their cars, while Hyundai/Kia were doing just the opposite.
I would expect you to know better about why exactly was Toyota punished for - for late pedal stuck recall that nobody ever died from.
As to cost-cutting in Toyota/Lexus vs Hyundai, obviously Hyundai went down a lot in realibility ratings in past years, while Toyota went up and Lexus is cemented alone on the top.
So, really have no idea where you got any of your info but it is factually wrong - all of it.
#38
Lexus Fanatic
Overall, yes, I agree....I'm not saying that Toyotas aren't reliable. But, the point I was tying to make is that their overall pattern lately of using lighter, thinner cheaper materials inside and for the bodywork appears to be the opposite of Hyundai. I don't think we will see either corporation, though, go bankrupt....both are simply in too strong a sales-position for that.
#39
Lexus Fanatic
As to cost-cutting in Toyota/Lexus vs Hyundai, obviously Hyundai went down a lot in realibility ratings in past years, while Toyota went up and Lexus is cemented alone on the top.
So, really have no idea where you got any of your info but it is factually wrong - all of it.
#40
Lexus Fanatic
#41
Lexus Fanatic
You specifically said Toyota is cost cutting (using inferior materials overall) and Hyundai is doing the opposite. I asked for some sort of proof of this, if it is only your opinion that's fine but if so then state as much.
#42
Lexus Fanatic
Now...does that mean that the Avalon is a POS? No, not by any means. It still has a excellent, smooth, refined drivetrain, just like it always has, and the usual Toyota/Lexus mirror-smooth paint-job. But the interior, IMO, shows obvious signs of cost-cutting, and the suspension/tires have been firmed up unnecessarily over the previous models.
Last edited by mmarshall; 11-09-14 at 09:37 AM.
#43
Lexus Test Driver
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In fact Toyota themselves have just claimed that their record profits of recent were partly due to cost cutting.
I read an article a few years back about how Toyota was in the process of forcing their long term suppliers, which there are hundreds, if not thousands of, to cut the cost of their materials & parts or be booted in favour of cheaper chinese part suppliers.
“Of course exchange rates helped, but we also made efforts to offset negatives such as a rise in fixed costs, with cost-cutting and sales efforts,” Executive Vice President Nobuyori Kodaira told a news conference
This is of no surprise what so ever, I mean look at the transition from 2IS to 3IS, an absolute cost cutting galore, especially in regards to the interior. But also certain exterior elements too.
I will not go into detail as I'm sure you can easily find plenty of data right here at CL regarding the matter
Last edited by yowps3; 11-09-14 at 05:34 PM.
#44
Lexus Fanatic
Thread Starter
iTrader: (20)
While I agree that the way Toyota was treated and harassed by Congress and the NHTSA was probably excessive and uncalled for, it's also fair to say that no one died because his or her Kia didn't get exactly the same gas mileage printed on the window-sticker. Now, of course, that doesn't prove that the reason people died in those Toyota/Lexus crashes was because of the cars themselves...human error or ignorance was obviously a strong possibility.
on the other hand, while exaggerated gas claimed may not have physically harmed people directly, it materially hurt millions out of huge amounts of money (by paying more for gas than they expected).
so i don't have a problem with hyundai's fine, but i do have a problem with toyota's outrageous fine.
But, even if the 1B judgement wasn't justified or applicable at that time (it probably wasn't), Toyota/Lexus was cost-cuting in other ways on the materials they used on their cars, while Hyundai/Kia were doing just the opposite.
#45
Lexus Fanatic
i can see you want to be 'fair' but i don't see how toyota's fine being TEN TIMES what hyundai's is could possibly be fair, when (as far as i know) there isn't a shred of evidence that toyota caused anyone harm - i believe they were fined in such a massive way because the govt saw it as an easy way to make a billion.
on the other hand, while exaggerated gas claimed may not have physically harmed people directly, it materially hurt millions out of huge amounts of money (by paying more for gas than they expected).
so i don't have a problem with hyundai's fine, but i do have a problem with toyota's outrageous fine.
there isn't a shred of evidence that toyota caused anyone harm.
i don't believe any cost cutting toyota did endangered anyone.
Now, if you want to see an example of a REAL auto company F*** - Up, (and, IMO, a WELL-deserved fine/judgement), no offense, but I know you are probably old enough to remember the Ford Pinto's gas tanks going up like Roman Candles when significantly rear-ended at all but very low speeds. That was because, back in the days of King Henry (II)'s CEO-reign at Ford, money, fiefdom, and arrogance reigned supreme, and the employees (including engineers) simply weren't allowed to think for themselves. Management set a target empty curb-weight for the base-model Pinto (without options) at 2000 lbs. Because of that (and for cost reasons), engineers were told to remove the rearmost protective frame-rail cross-member behind the fuel tank, thereby directly exposing it to rear-impacts (there wasn't time to redo or adjust the car's body-on-frame design). Engineers protested that this was potentially dangerous and could result in many injuries/deaths.... but were told to finalize the design for production. The rest, of course, is automotive ihistory, and there is no doubt in my mind that Ford's management deserved every penny of the huge fine (perhaps even more) that the jury hit them with.
Last edited by mmarshall; 11-09-14 at 07:31 PM.