bitkahuna

iTrader: (20)

most of those brand names were ruined by craptastic releases. the escalade however has had consistent success.

not absurd at all, either at infiniti or cadillac. after all, the guy came from audi which has A for sedans/coupes and Q for suv's which is a very nice scheme.

that's what he wanted and the gm brass obviously bought into it.

much ado about nothing since cadillac (and infiniti) model names have so little brand cache at this point.

mmarshall

Actually, Ford thought correctly. I did a full-review of a Five Hundred. When the name was originally changed from Taurus/Sable to Five Hundred/Montego (both super-retro names from the 1960s, BTW), it was not just a simple name-change. The Five Hundered/Montego was a truly-full-size sedan markedly different from previous Taurus/Sable models in many ways.....including a needed AWD option with a CVT.

The problem, though, as you pointed out, was that the public had become so used to the top-selling Taurus/Sable name (DUH?) that they failed to notice that the Five Hundered and Montego were FAR better vehicles. As a result, those cars did not get the credit they deserved.

Oh, I certainly agree that change for change's sake is often silly.......I've posted about that many times over the years. But the example you gave from Ford/Mercury was not in that class. That was a different name for a clearly different car.

We're also,to some extent, comparing apples and oranges. In general, it's easier for the public to remember regular dictionary word-names for vehicles than confusing alphabet soup......so, in that sense, yes, I agree, I think Cadillac would be better off with regular names.

Sulu

So what exactly is Cadillac telling us with the plan to change all names, EXCEPT for the Escalade?

Are they telling us that the ATS, XTS and CTS (despite surviving into its 3rd generation) are all failures? And that the Escalade (now coming into its 4th generation) is the only success?

Are they telling us that all of their modern Art and Science cars (current ATS, CTS, XTS and SRX, and already-gone STS, DTS and XLR) are failures?

Perhaps they need a completely new, better (different) lineup of cars?

If we suggest that Lincoln bring back the Town Car, should we also suggest that Cadillac bring back the DeVille and Fleetwood?

Toys4RJill

The Escaalde name on its own is iconic. It means something. All the others ATS/XTS/ELR mean nothing. CT has some value.

Trexus

You and I are both on the same page...Cadillac needs to be consistent...

What if Lexus adopted Cadillac's nomenclature?

Let's call the LX 570, Lexus Landcruiser. I understand that Toyota has the Landcruiser as well, but remember that Dodge had the Neon and Plymouth had no creativity and called their version a Neon as well and get this in Europe Chrysler had the same exact car and called it the Neon as well...Nice...Dodge Neon, Plymouth Neon and Chrysler Neon...oh yeah...

So back to Cadillac's naming theory.

Lexus Landcruiser
GX 460
RX 350/450h
NX 200t/300h

LS 460/600h L
GS 350/450h
IS 250/350/300h/F
ES 350/300h

RC 350/300h/F

CT 200h

This doesn't seem consistent but hey Cadillac's naming system isn't consistent either...

SW17LS

They had lots of iconic names they chose to disregard...

tex2670

How does this change change those perceptions?

tex2670

Audi had 2 models at the time they went to that naming structure, and those model names were more confusing: 80/90 and 100/200.

tex2670

But--isn't that the "branding" point?? Ford has a brand name in the Taurus that, not too many years before, was THE best selling passenger car in the US of A, and among the top 3 many more years. So instead of leveraging that name, they think "Let's just dump it outright because the new car is larger and different." I understand making the Fusion the Taurus, and slotting a new model above the Taurus, but the outright stupidity of dumping a well-established, recognized, and respected (at least in the past) nameplate is mind boggling. Again--change for the sake of change.

mmarshall

It's true that, during the 90s, the Taurus battled it out, year by year,with the Camry and Accord for the title of top-selling car in the U.S. But a lot of those Taurus sales (more so than with the other two) were fleet-sales to car-rental firms and government agencies.


Well, if you consider it stupidity, I agree there is at least a partial argument for it, if you just consider fewer sales for their replacements. But, like the ill-fated VW Phaeton, (which was a bargain and a half), I at least partially blame the public itself. The Five Hundred/Montego, IMO, was an excellent large sedan, and a FAR better car than the Taurus/Sable it replaced. So the public, by NOT buying it in higher numbers, like with the Phaeton, lost out on a good deal. They lost out because they concentrated too much on names and didn't do their homework before shopping.

I'd also like to point out two other things. First, the 3Gen 1995-99 Taurus/Sable, with its oval-obsessed insect look, was itself a sales disaster compared to past Tauruses...the more conventional 2000 replacement, before the Five Hundered came out restored some, but not all, of those lost sales. Second, the present Taurus itself (after the Five Hundered/Montego), has not exactly beat the showroom door down in sales, either....bringing the old name back clearly was not the answer.

Getting back to the thread topic (Cadillac naming), many of the posters here on CAR CHAT feel that Cadillac and Lincoln did the right thing by dropping their big DeVille/DTS and Town-Car flagships and replacing them with smaller Alphabet-soup-named sedans. I don't agree with that view (and have posted/argued it many times in the past)...but, not surprisingly in a forum like this, my view is in the minority. Actual sales though, of the XTS and Lincoln MKS, have clearly not kept up with those of the former DTS and Town Car, so there does seem to be some truth to it. Many former DTS and Town Car owners (just as I predicted would happen) are instead buying good CPO used samples in good condition.

Toys4RJill

Cadillac has brand issues, people are not seeing Cadillac in the same view as MB, Lexus, BMW and Audi.

mmarshall

That was one of my earlier points. These people, by NOT seeing the Cadillac CTS and ATS as a credible alternative to Lexus and the Germans (which they clearly are), simply aren't doing their homework. IMO, it's not an automaker's fault, even in the advertising/marketing departments, if it offers bargains or credible products and the public simply refuses to look at them or buy them.

SW17LS

The point is that changing the naming structure for their models is not going to help change that. Building excellent products, offering them at a value, and time will. Cadillac isn't experiencing the sales success they want because cars like the CTS are too expensive...not because its called the "CTS" and not the "CT5". The CTS is about $10k too expensive optioned up.

The issue with the XTS and the MKS are that the product isn't very good. You say the Town Car and DTS sold better, I refer you to your comment about the Taurus:

The vast majority of Town Car and DTS sales were fleet sales. So here you say that the Taurus wasn't a legitimate strong seller compared to the Camry and Accord because it sold a lot of fleet sales...yet you ignore that when discussing the Town Car and DTS? Come on now.

Just for the sake of argument:

DTS Sales:
2005 23,322
2006[11] 58,224
2007 51,469
2008[12] 30,479
2009[13] 17,330
2010[14] 18,640
2011[15] 11,589
2012[16] 465

XTS Sales:
2012[8] 15,049
2013[9] 32,559

So as you can see here, XTS sales aren't so far off from the DTS as you would have us believe. 2013 sales were better than sales of the DTS in 2005, 2008, 2009, 2010, 2011 and 2012...

mmarshall

Correct.....except for the AWD options on both cars that their predecessors never had, the more efficient/flexible drivetrains, and the better interior trim on the XTS in comparison to the DTS. But, otherwise, as I've stated before a number of times, I agree with you that neither car is very impressive for a flagship.

Not really. The DTS and Town Car, unlike the Accord/Camry/Taurus, were not only extremely popular with limo-firms and the executive-car buisness, but also with millions of seniors nationwide. I agree, though, that , especially in the case of the DTS, it was uncommon to see anyone under about 60 driving one.....it is about as close to the classic Grandpa/Grandma stereotype as one could get. But,with longer life-expectency today, and better medical cars, these people simply aren't dying off as much as had been predicted, and driving well into their 80s and sometimes 90s.

I'm not questioning your figures, but they don't necessarily take into account what I said earlier......that the used-car market for the DTS and Town Car has taken over a significant part of what once were new-car sales for them. Every used TC or DTS sale usually means a new XTS or MKS that is NOT going out the door.

SW17LS

So the Taurus was just never popular with anybody but fleet sales huh? You're perpetrating a double standard here. Find me some figures that show the % of Taurus sales that were fleet sales and the % of TC/DTS sales that were fleet sales.

So then XTS sales have actually grown by your logic then, since all those DTS owners are buying used DTSs and the similar-to-better sales of the XTS must all be new buyers to the brand. Go Cadillac!

Just to bring up the Town Car, here are its sales figures:

1998 97,547
1999[26] 84,629
2000 81,399
2001[27] 66,859
2002[28] 59,312
2003 56,566
2004[29] 51,908
2005 47,122
2006[30] 39,295
2007 26,739
2008[31] 15,653
2009[32] 11,375
2010[33] 11,264
2011[34] 9,460
2012[35] 1,001

As you can plainly see, steadily exponentially dropping sales...not one year of sales growth from the previous year from 1999 to 2012. Thats 13 years. Remember these figures include fleet sales...when you take that into account, after about 2007 Town Car sales were terrible.

MKS Sales:

2008 12,982[17]
2009 17,174[18]
2010 14,417[19]
2011 12,217[20]
2012 12,524[21]
2013 10,793[22]

Again, not so dissimilar from Town Car sales, and note the big dip in TC sales in 08 when the MKS came out. Remember too by your logic all the old TC owners are keeping their TCs (you know, the ones that haven't died) and buying used TCs, so all these MKS owners are new to the Lincoln brand. Go Lincoln!

I don't think you actually have any valid argument here other than these cars were cars you liked. The buying public obviously overwhelmingly disagreed, and since Lincoln and Cadillac both have models performing as well or better than the TC and DTS did in the few years leading up to their demise, I don't see how theres any argument that those brands are worse off for having cancelled these models.