European Air Worse Than Beijing at times, rethinking Diesels
09-23-14, 10:58 AM
#16
Lexus Champion
Lol, I remember Greenpeace nutjobs protesting outside the Porsche headquarters in Leipzig and Stuttgart.
Sure, they may have the right to protest *peacefully* BUT if the eco-terrorists go berserk (like what they sometimes do), then it's time to fight back against the radicalist hippies.
When that happens, Porsche can easily uses their vehicle fleet to ram and run down over these eco-freaks until they're mince meat
Sure, they may have the right to protest *peacefully* BUT if the eco-terrorists go berserk (like what they sometimes do), then it's time to fight back against the radicalist hippies.
When that happens, Porsche can easily uses their vehicle fleet to ram and run down over these eco-freaks until they're mince meat
09-23-14, 11:43 AM
#17
Super Moderator
The reason you see the smog issues in Europe are that the equivalent standard (Euro 6) doesn't go into effect until next year, so almost none of the vehicles sold there are equipped with this modern emissions equipment. This is even called out explicitly in the article.
More info on SCR:
http://alternativefuels.about.com/od...ment/a/scr.htm
09-23-14, 12:42 PM
#18
Lexus Champion
Thread Starter
The Selective Catalyst Reduction process (The primary way that US cars meet the Tier II, Bin 5 emissions regulations that have been required since MY2008) eliminates nearly 100% of all NOx in modern clean diesels.
The reason you see the smog issues in Europe are that the equivalent standard (Euro 6) doesn't go into effect until next year, so almost none of the vehicles sold there are equipped with this modern emissions equipment. This is even called out explicitly in the article.
More info on SCR:
http://alternativefuels.about.com/od...ment/a/scr.htm
The reason you see the smog issues in Europe are that the equivalent standard (Euro 6) doesn't go into effect until next year, so almost none of the vehicles sold there are equipped with this modern emissions equipment. This is even called out explicitly in the article.
More info on SCR:
http://alternativefuels.about.com/od...ment/a/scr.htm
thank you Geko!
09-23-14, 01:33 PM
#19
Lexus Fanatic
I'm an ex-pilot, BTW, and often saw situations like this from the cockpit.
09-24-14, 12:44 AM
#20
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The Euro6 limits for NOx for diesels are 80 mg/km. And "clean" Euro 6 diesels just barely make it.
To put that in perspective, my 1999 IS200 makes 30 mg/km, i.e. about 3 times cleaner than modern "clean" diesel, and it is a 15 years old car.
A modern Lexus hybrid like IS300h would do 2 mg/km. That is about 40 times cleaner that a "clean" diesel.
To put that in perspective, my 1999 IS200 makes 30 mg/km, i.e. about 3 times cleaner than modern "clean" diesel, and it is a 15 years old car.
A modern Lexus hybrid like IS300h would do 2 mg/km. That is about 40 times cleaner that a "clean" diesel.
09-24-14, 03:45 AM
#21
Super Moderator
The Euro6 limits for NOx for diesels are 80 mg/km. And "clean" Euro 6 diesels just barely make it.
To put that in perspective, my 1999 IS200 makes 30 mg/km, i.e. about 3 times cleaner than modern "clean" diesel, and it is a 15 years old car.
A modern Lexus hybrid like IS300h would do 2 mg/km. That is about 40 times cleaner that a "clean" diesel.
To put that in perspective, my 1999 IS200 makes 30 mg/km, i.e. about 3 times cleaner than modern "clean" diesel, and it is a 15 years old car.
A modern Lexus hybrid like IS300h would do 2 mg/km. That is about 40 times cleaner that a "clean" diesel.
Source: http://webpages.charter.net/lmarz/emissions2012.html
Perhaps there are some miniscule engines that can come just under 80mg/km WITHOUT the 90-95% reduction provided by SCR, and therefore manufacturers don't bother fitting a DEF system. But the ones that DO use it are dramatically cleaner.
09-24-14, 07:23 AM
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Also wrong. The 2012 Passat TDI (US model, so Tier II/Bin 5 or Euro 6 compliant) puts out 10mg/mi in highway driving, which is 6.25mg/km. In the rigorous FTP75 federal emissions cycle testing (designed to mimic city driving), it's 40mg/mi, or 25mg/km. The FTP75 also includes two engine starts for just 11 miles of driving, and starts are where emissions are highest. That fact alone produces roughly half of the increase in NOx vs. the highway figures.
Source: http://webpages.charter.net/lmarz/emissions2012.html
Perhaps there are some miniscule engines that can come just under 80mg/km WITHOUT the 90-95% reduction provided by SCR, and therefore manufacturers don't bother fitting a DEF system. But the ones that DO use it are dramatically cleaner.
Source: http://webpages.charter.net/lmarz/emissions2012.html
Perhaps there are some miniscule engines that can come just under 80mg/km WITHOUT the 90-95% reduction provided by SCR, and therefore manufacturers don't bother fitting a DEF system. But the ones that DO use it are dramatically cleaner.
The best TDI you can get in Europe at the moment is Passat 2.0TDI BlueMotion with SCR which still emits 94 mg/km NOx under the very optimistic NEDC cycle.
Reference here: https://www.car-emissions.com/cars/view/47580
Obviously, SCR can be tuned to do better, but this would drive its cost up and car companies will avoid that, as much as the regulations allow them. Hence, I assume when Euro 6 arrives, all diesels will do <80 mg/km NOx, but not many, if any at all will do <40 mg/km.
09-24-14, 12:55 PM
#23
Super Moderator
A) the data was available (couldn't find any stats on MY2015 Euro 6 diesels)
B) most manufacturers--including VW and BMW--have used the US as a "proving ground" for the new stricter emissions requirements, since they went into effect here 7 model years earlier than in the EU. Work out the kinks in the smaller market before introducing them to the larger one, so to speak. Carbon Build-up in the cylinder head and intake manifold from the combination of Direct Injection and EGR being one of the larger "kinks".
Then you conveniently glossed over the FTP75 test cycle figures I ALSO posted--which represent a city cycle--and implied that I only provided highway figures.
It's pointless to continue, I'm out.
12-01-14, 12:00 PM
#24
In Related News
France wants to gradually phase out the use of diesel fuel for passenger cars and will put in place a system to identify the most polluting vehicles, Prime Minister Manuel Valls said.
Next year, the government will launch a car identification system that will rank vehicles by the amount of pollution they emit, Valls said. This will make it possible for local authorities to limit city access for the dirtiest cars.
"In France, we have long favored the diesel engine. This was a mistake, and we will progressively undo that, intelligently and pragmatically," Valls said.
About 80% of French motorists drive diesel-powered cars.
Taxation would have to orient citizens towards more ecological choices, Valls said in a speech on Friday. The 2015 state budget measures would seek to reduce the tax advantage of diesel fuel versus gas.
The government has announced it will raise the so-called TICPE excise tax on diesel by 2 euro cents per liter, bringing in 807 million euros to state coffers in 2015.
Valls also said the government was working on plans to widen the number of beneficiaries of a subsidy for the conversion of old diesel engines in areas with anti-pollution plans.
Energy Minister Segolene Royal announced earlier this year that drivers scrapping diesel-powered cars to buy an electric 1 would be entitled to a bonus of up to 10,000 euros ($13,500).
12-01-14, 01:26 PM
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France wants to gradually phase out the use of diesel fuel for passenger cars and will put in place a system to identify the most polluting vehicles, Prime Minister Manuel Valls said.
Next year, the government will launch a car identification system that will rank vehicles by the amount of pollution they emit, Valls said. This will make it possible for local authorities to limit city access for the dirtiest cars.
"In France, we have long favored the diesel engine. This was a mistake, and we will progressively undo that, intelligently and pragmatically," Valls said.
About 80% of French motorists drive diesel-powered cars.
Taxation would have to orient citizens towards more ecological choices, Valls said in a speech on Friday. The 2015 state budget measures would seek to reduce the tax advantage of diesel fuel versus gas.
The government has announced it will raise the so-called TICPE excise tax on diesel by 2 euro cents per liter, bringing in 807 million euros to state coffers in 2015.
Valls also said the government was working on plans to widen the number of beneficiaries of a subsidy for the conversion of old diesel engines in areas with anti-pollution plans.
Energy Minister Segolene Royal announced earlier this year that drivers scrapping diesel-powered cars to buy an electric 1 would be entitled to a bonus of up to 10,000 euros ($13,500).
Diesel as a fuel is good for vehicles that tow and travel on highways. It's terrible in stop start traffic, and there's virtually no point to it in congested cities as the fuel consumption is barely better than petrol vehicles, whilst producing far higher particulate tailpipe emissions.
I'm sure there will be plenty of angry lobbying by the German automakers though.
12-01-14, 01:36 PM
#26
Lexus Champion
I'm sure there will be plenty of angry lobbying by the German automakers though.
I wonder how they'll balance the engine lineup this time if ever this new law goes into effect in France. I suppose they'll shift to THP petrol engines for performance models (like the 208 and 308 GTI as well as top-end versions of the RCZ). For the Peugeot 508, I still believe that the 2.2 GT Diesel will still be the flagship engine (since it has the most horsepower compared to their gasoline engine lineup)........HOWEVER, there may be a push to promote the Diesel Hybrid (like what Citroen did to the DS5)
Anyways, we'll see how this goes.
12-01-14, 08:14 PM
#27
Not just the Germans............but French domestic carmakers as well. AFAIK, Renault has invested heavily on their four cylinder and six cylinder diesel engine lineup for years. In fact, more so with PSA Peugeot Citroen with their 1.6 and 2.0 engines with more 50% of their lineup being Diesel-centric.
I wonder how they'll balance the engine lineup this time if ever this new law goes into effect in France. I suppose they'll shift to THP petrol engines for performance models (like the 208 and 308 GTI as well as top-end versions of the RCZ). For the Peugeot 508, I still believe that the 2.2 GT Diesel will still be the flagship engine (since it has the most horsepower compared to their gasoline engine lineup)........HOWEVER, there may be a push to promote the Diesel Hybrid (like what Citroen did to the DS5)
Anyways, we'll see how this goes.
I wonder how they'll balance the engine lineup this time if ever this new law goes into effect in France. I suppose they'll shift to THP petrol engines for performance models (like the 208 and 308 GTI as well as top-end versions of the RCZ). For the Peugeot 508, I still believe that the 2.2 GT Diesel will still be the flagship engine (since it has the most horsepower compared to their gasoline engine lineup)........HOWEVER, there may be a push to promote the Diesel Hybrid (like what Citroen did to the DS5)
Anyways, we'll see how this goes.
Reason they sold 80% diesels in France is because they had lower taxes on diesel fuel, which made diesel at least 10% cheaper.
Without subsidizing diesel fuel, there would be no sense to have diesel running in the city. Destroys not only the environment, but also the powertrain. DPF's are not made for the city.
EPA emission standards are still stricter than Euro VI. This is why there is no Mazda6 diesel in the US, while it has been rated Euro VI in Europe. For US, they have to use urea, which is much more expensive for manufacturers. Mercedes offers their urea systems in Europe, for cleaner emissions, of course with higher price - and rate of take is abysmal compared to regular Euro VI diesels.
12-02-14, 11:25 AM
#28
France: Diesel engines a 'mistake'
France to rank cars for pollution, wants to phase out diesel fuel
Nov 28 (Reuters) - France wants to gradually phase out the use of diesel fuel for private passenger transport and will put in place a system to identify the most polluting vehicles, Prime Minister Manuel Valls said on Friday.
Next year, the government will launch a car identification system that will rank vehicles by the amount of pollution they emit, Valls said in a speech. This will make it possible for local authorities to limit city access for the dirtiest cars.
"In France, we have long favoured the diesel engine. This was a mistake, and we will progressively undo that, intelligently and pragmatically," Valls said.
About 80 percent of French motorists drive diesel-powered cars.
Valls said taxation would have to orient citizens towards more ecological choices, notably the 2015 state budget measures to reduce the tax advantage of diesel fuel versus gas.
The government has announced it will raise the so-called TICPE excise tax on diesel by 2 euro cents per litre, bringing in 807 million euros to state coffers in 2015.
Valls also said the government was working on plans to widen the number of beneficiaries of a subsidy for the conversion of old diesel engines in areas with anti-pollution plans.
Energy Minister Segolene Royal announced earlier this year that drivers scrapping diesel-powered cars to buy an electric one would be entitled to a bonus of up to 10,000 euros ($13,500).
Next year, the government will launch a car identification system that will rank vehicles by the amount of pollution they emit, Valls said in a speech. This will make it possible for local authorities to limit city access for the dirtiest cars.
"In France, we have long favoured the diesel engine. This was a mistake, and we will progressively undo that, intelligently and pragmatically," Valls said.
About 80 percent of French motorists drive diesel-powered cars.
Valls said taxation would have to orient citizens towards more ecological choices, notably the 2015 state budget measures to reduce the tax advantage of diesel fuel versus gas.
The government has announced it will raise the so-called TICPE excise tax on diesel by 2 euro cents per litre, bringing in 807 million euros to state coffers in 2015.
Valls also said the government was working on plans to widen the number of beneficiaries of a subsidy for the conversion of old diesel engines in areas with anti-pollution plans.
Energy Minister Segolene Royal announced earlier this year that drivers scrapping diesel-powered cars to buy an electric one would be entitled to a bonus of up to 10,000 euros ($13,500).
