GM To Idle ATS & CTS Plant For 3 Weeks; CTS Has 215 Day Supply
08-11-14, 03:30 PM
#121
Lexus Fanatic
As to the independent rear. Jill is saying that the issue with the solid rear in the Verano is that its supposed to be a premium option. The Corolla has a solid rear and thats okay because its an economy car...as is the Cruze. However...if Lexus had a version of the Corolla...it would be expected it would have an independent rear.
I agree that any "premium" car should have an independent rear to be taken seriously. I would certainly never buy anything but an economy car with a solid rear.
08-11-14, 03:36 PM
#122
Lead Lap
Thread Starter
08-11-14, 03:45 PM
#123
Lexus Fanatic
A big truck like the Escalade is another story, you can understand why it has a solid rear and I almost put a caveat in what I said about trucks. Derived from pickups where a solid rear is an important part of how well it hauls and tows. Theres a benefit there to a solid rear. The GX and LX have a solid rear. Not so in a car like the Verano...the solid rear is there to save cost.
Last edited by SW17LS; 08-11-14 at 03:50 PM.
08-11-14, 03:52 PM
#124
Lexus Fanatic
08-11-14, 03:53 PM
#125
Lead Lap
Thread Starter
A big truck like the Escalade is another story, you can understand why it has a solid rear and I almost put a caveat in what I said about trucks. Derived from pickups where a solid rear is an important part of how well it hauls and tows. Theres a benefit there to a solid rear. The GX and LX have a solid rear. Not so in a car like the Verano...the solid rear is there to save cost.
08-11-14, 03:55 PM
#126
Lexus Fanatic
I do agree, and I personally nowadays would prefer a independent rear in an SUV, as is in my Jeep Grand Cherokee. But for vehicles derived from a pickup truck chassis, I can give them a pass, pickup truck drivers don't want independent rears.
08-11-14, 04:04 PM
#127
Lexus Fanatic
100% agree.
As to the independent rear. Jill is saying that the issue with the solid rear in the Verano is that its supposed to be a premium option. The Corolla has a solid rear and thats okay because its an economy car...as is the Cruze. However...if Lexus had a version of the Corolla...it would be expected it would have an independent rear.
I agree that any "premium" car should have an independent rear to be taken seriously. I would certainly never buy anything but an economy car with a solid rear.
As to the independent rear. Jill is saying that the issue with the solid rear in the Verano is that its supposed to be a premium option. The Corolla has a solid rear and thats okay because its an economy car...as is the Cruze. However...if Lexus had a version of the Corolla...it would be expected it would have an independent rear.
I agree that any "premium" car should have an independent rear to be taken seriously. I would certainly never buy anything but an economy car with a solid rear.
I think it is absurb to compare are car like the Verano with the beam axle to an IS with an IRS. Then we have an almost $12k starting price difference.
Completely rediculous to compare them.
As for the Corolla, the beam axle is nothing more than there to keep costs low and MSRP down. Nothing is expected of it other than to go from A to B.
Cadillac got the FWD wrong in the 90s, they made sure to get RWD right when the new breed of Cadillac came along. Hopefully, if they do a parts bin Cruze based Cadillac (like Buick did with the Cruze/Verano) they will put an IRS out back.
08-11-14, 04:05 PM
#128
Lexus Fanatic
solid rear with a four or five link deserves a pass. A solid rear with leaf springs is a fail.
08-11-14, 05:26 PM
#130
08-11-14, 05:29 PM
#131
Lexus Fanatic
Yes, there advantages to being a UAW member.
08-11-14, 05:54 PM
#132
Lexus Test Driver
08-11-14, 05:59 PM
#133
Lexus Fanatic
One thing, though, seems clear from the OP....something that has gotten little emphasis so far. Those in the market for a new ATS or CTS may find some good deals right now from over-supply and under-demand.....though how much that would affect the normally expensive CTS-V remains to be seen.
At one time, I considered an AWD version of the ATS myself (there are a number of things about it I like).....but I didn't care for the CUE video-system or the suspension/tires.
At one time, I considered an AWD version of the ATS myself (there are a number of things about it I like).....but I didn't care for the CUE video-system or the suspension/tires.
Last edited by mmarshall; 08-11-14 at 06:02 PM.
08-11-14, 09:18 PM
#134
My take on Cadillac's problems are that their product planners did a terrible job even though the engineers seem to executed that plan well.
1. They abandoned their traditional customer base and left them with no viable Cadillac option. The XTS could have been that option, but the stiff suspension and 20" wheels assured that the ride would be unacceptable to most. The Impala has a much better ride.
2.They chased the younger BMW 3 series buyer with the ATS. Nice try, but those buyers bought 3 series anyway. The ATS is also tiny and rough riding compared to the current 3 series.
3.The CTS is priced like a 5 series or E class and is not capturing many of those buyers. It is also too small inside to be a traditional American luxury sedan. It is a great driving car with a limited market. "My $70,000 CTS V sport is faster than your $65000 535i" isn't going to convert many BMW fans.
It is a complex issue, but that is my view of what happened. Fix?
1. Fix the XTS so it is a viable DTS replacement. Sell the hell out of it for airport limos that used to be Town Cars.
2. ATS Coupe will help a little. Focus ATS on BMW fans who think the new 3 series is too big, soft, and boring. Get rid of base 4 and drop price on rest.
3 Price! Include options that make it look like a bargin compared to BMW and Mercedes.
Steve
1. They abandoned their traditional customer base and left them with no viable Cadillac option. The XTS could have been that option, but the stiff suspension and 20" wheels assured that the ride would be unacceptable to most. The Impala has a much better ride.
2.They chased the younger BMW 3 series buyer with the ATS. Nice try, but those buyers bought 3 series anyway. The ATS is also tiny and rough riding compared to the current 3 series.
3.The CTS is priced like a 5 series or E class and is not capturing many of those buyers. It is also too small inside to be a traditional American luxury sedan. It is a great driving car with a limited market. "My $70,000 CTS V sport is faster than your $65000 535i" isn't going to convert many BMW fans.
It is a complex issue, but that is my view of what happened. Fix?
1. Fix the XTS so it is a viable DTS replacement. Sell the hell out of it for airport limos that used to be Town Cars.
2. ATS Coupe will help a little. Focus ATS on BMW fans who think the new 3 series is too big, soft, and boring. Get rid of base 4 and drop price on rest.
3 Price! Include options that make it look like a bargin compared to BMW and Mercedes.
Steve
08-12-14, 06:38 AM
#135
Lexus Fanatic
My take on Cadillac's problems are that their product planners did a terrible job even though the engineers seem to executed that plan well.
1. They abandoned their traditional customer base and left them with no viable Cadillac option. The XTS could have been that option, but the stiff suspension and 20" wheels assured that the ride would be unacceptable to most. The Impala has a much better ride.
2.They chased the younger BMW 3 series buyer with the ATS. Nice try, but those buyers bought 3 series anyway. The ATS is also tiny and rough riding compared to the current 3 series.
3.The CTS is priced like a 5 series or E class and is not capturing many of those buyers. It is also too small inside to be a traditional American luxury sedan. It is a great driving car with a limited market. "My $70,000 CTS V sport is faster than your $65000 535i" isn't going to convert many BMW fans.
It is a complex issue, but that is my view of what happened. Fix?
1. Fix the XTS so it is a viable DTS replacement. Sell the hell out of it for airport limos that used to be Town Cars.
2. ATS Coupe will help a little. Focus ATS on BMW fans who think the new 3 series is too big, soft, and boring. Get rid of base 4 and drop price on rest.
3 Price! Include options that make it look like a bargin compared to BMW and Mercedes.
Steve
1. They abandoned their traditional customer base and left them with no viable Cadillac option. The XTS could have been that option, but the stiff suspension and 20" wheels assured that the ride would be unacceptable to most. The Impala has a much better ride.
2.They chased the younger BMW 3 series buyer with the ATS. Nice try, but those buyers bought 3 series anyway. The ATS is also tiny and rough riding compared to the current 3 series.
3.The CTS is priced like a 5 series or E class and is not capturing many of those buyers. It is also too small inside to be a traditional American luxury sedan. It is a great driving car with a limited market. "My $70,000 CTS V sport is faster than your $65000 535i" isn't going to convert many BMW fans.
It is a complex issue, but that is my view of what happened. Fix?
1. Fix the XTS so it is a viable DTS replacement. Sell the hell out of it for airport limos that used to be Town Cars.
2. ATS Coupe will help a little. Focus ATS on BMW fans who think the new 3 series is too big, soft, and boring. Get rid of base 4 and drop price on rest.
3 Price! Include options that make it look like a bargin compared to BMW and Mercedes.
Steve
You are correct on all counts, especially with the DTS/XTS. The ATS does ride on the stiff side, but most reviewers now place it ahead of the 3-series in handling.
I'd also add something else......the CUE system and the finger-slide volume/fan controls (which are also used in some Lincolns) also turn some potential buyers off.