UDel

That is interesting that testing in the summer compared to the winter made so much of a difference. I actually find that troubling that a car would give a pretty bad impression when tested in the winter with harsher ride, seeming to be cost cut in areas but then in the summer you notice a pretty big difference which could actually mean there is more cost cutting if you notice such a difference. I have never experienced a car that rode harsh and gave a bad impression in the winter but gave a noticeable better ride/impression in the summer. My GS takes longer to warm up in the winter and transmission shifts a little rougher on very cold days on start up but that is a given with all cars, only other thing I notice is the front suspension creaks more over speed bumps and other bumps in colder weather but that is about it. I would be very concerned about the quality and how a car is going to hold up if it rides much better and give a much better impression in the summer compared to the winter.

spwolf

you are overthinking it... it is not different than any other car, mmarshal is sensitive about these things.

bitkahuna

iTrader: (20)

believe hs250h is still available in japan at least, but as you know it didn't sell in the u.s., so it would need a new 'formula' to work.

the gs450h and ls600hl, partly due to almost no marketing, partly due to price, partly due to not very compelling value proposition, don't sell much, so they need a new formula too. no doubt the new LS will bring a different setup. don't get me wrong though, i think the ls600hl is AMAZING, and if i was in the market for a big hushed sedan i'd definitely consider it, although at that price, the s-class is an option too.

mmarshall

I found the 6Gen ES interior materials a step up from the new Avalon's in solidness, even if it still is not the equal of the 4 and 5 Gen models. The Avalon is some nice-looking materials on the surface (as good looking as that of the ES), but, underneath, they feel like cardboard. The worst examples are the glove box door/latch and heated-seat twirl-*****.

Can't fault the power train or the general refinement, though, of either the ES or Avalon......both are just like butter, though the Avalon's ride over bumps, IMO, has been firmed up unnecessarily, even taking temperature into account.

mmarshall

Both of you, to an extent, are correct. It's true that I am indeed sensitive to these things, with a sensitivity that comes from many years and decades of driving and reviewing cars. But it is also true that with most cars, not just the ES, all else equal, you will notice more refinement of operation when the temperature is warm.....fewer rattles/squeaks, better wind-noise control, a smoother ride, and better tire-adhesion from the warmer rubber. What you will NOT have when it is warm is better acceleration. In general, it's the reverse....down to a point, the colder it is outside, and the colder the intake-air through the engine's air-ducts, the more available power you will have from the same engine, once the engine is warm enough and the oil pressure high enough to give it some gas without drag on the cold engine.

Don't take what I said too literally...I did not mean it in an extreme manner. It's not like comparing the vast difference over bumps between, say, a harsh Honda S2000 roadster and a super-soft Mercedes S550. What I meant to say was that, while it is not always huge, the difference in ride comfort and quietness, to my ears and rump at least, is indeed noticeable between, say, freezing (32 degrees) and 80-90 on a summer day.

spwolf

both are too crazy priced in USA... when it comes to HS250h - I bet they will re-introduce it worldwide when new one comes out (CTh Sedan?). It will need to be a better car for the price.

bitkahuna

iTrader: (20)

the specs of the hs250h weren't bad, and it handled nicely. but it was no prettier than mrs doubtfire.

Hoovey689

iTrader: (16)

Japan gets the better refreshed one



And that sexy bamboo wood

bitkahuna

iTrader: (20)

lipstick on a pig but we've had all these discussions. it's obviously hard to do a 'normal' sized sedan that's a hybrid because the batteries and motors have to go somewhere. makes more sense in a bigger sedan or cuv/suv. the CT looks decent, but has very little cargo room, which is why the taller prius type shape makes more sense, although even that cargo area is not very tall.

LexFather

We had a loaded HS and one thing it had in spades was technology (optional). My folks never considered a RX or ES hybrid since it might have the hybrid tech but lacked many of the features of the HS like LKA, a front camera, radar cruise control. Its hilarious to see competitors finally boast some of this tech in 2014 and the HS had it in 2009 as a 2010 model.

The HS sadly didn't look great and tried to be a jack of all trades without being a master of one. And maybe 3 sedans at that price point is just too much, maybe a coupe would have made more sense here.


The CT has exceeded all sales targets. Sounds like you have an issue with it but not consumers or the intended market.

Obviously the CT is not a Prius, it was aimed for a sportier and more youthful buyer.

Hoovey689

iTrader: (16)

To each his own on design. But it does has some nice additions/refinements that we never had. I have a feeling a second gen would be in a tidier package with better use of space. But who knows. CT though needs a more lucrative profile to be worthy of the L badge, which is why it doesn't look like an appliance vs its kissing cousin. As it stands I don't think Lexus will abandon the small premium/luxury (h) sedan as much as put it on hiatus. ESh is moving well, but a CT sedan is likely too if Lexus feels they can cash in from a more efficient standpoint vs the 'sporty' nature of the A3 and CLA.

It was cool that the HS offered such an advanced technology package. Some items not even available on the LS. I personally think if they kept it long enough for the spindle refresh it would have had similar results to the GX going spindle.

CT handles very well. Add a little extra weight from safety, tech, content and it'll have a few tradeoffs compared to the more pleblian Prius but worth it in the premium hatch segment. CT has a bright future IMO.

spwolf

it is not really a problem anymore... Auris/Yaris Hybrids has batteries under the back seats, so thats possible in small cars too... so next gen CT200h will have same boot space as any other car in the class (not that current one was terrible for the class, but it was a bit shallower as part of the trunk was taken by batteries and other 70% you could use as under-shelf storage).

On the other hand, problem with HS250h and sales were numerous, and I bet if they do another one (and they will), it will double the sales easily.

What they can and will do better is:
- Exterior looks
- Interior looks (like NX)
- Powertrain - one in ES300h is already a lot better - more power, more refined, better MPG
- better packaging - batteries under seat.
- better drive (all new platform)

ES300h isnt offered in half of Lexus markets (too big), so they do need FWD Sedan thats between A3 and CLA. This will probably come out in 2016.

bitkahuna

iTrader: (20)

very likely if they do one.

are you saying it does have a more lucrative profile, or needs one worthy of L badge?

whether it's called HS or CT or whatever, yes, i can see them taking another run at it for sure.

well if you add all that it's going to be terribly slow unless there's a power train improvement.

agreed but the CT's in a class of it's own i'd say and shallow trunk space works for some (city commuters or light travelers). no doubt a next gen will be improved.

yeah if they did all those things i'm sure it would sell a lot better. and they'd need to do a lot better than double sales.



good posts guys.

Hoovey689

iTrader: (16)

It's more appealing than the Prius currently is what I meant, but could always use more seductive styling. Of course the trade off we know is gaining form usually sacrifices function which is what hatches specialize in. CT is good for now, I like the '14 improvements. Lexus can focus on other models.

Let's hope that CT300h comes to fruition.