TangoRed

Disagree, but whatever.

OK, so what exactly about the A8's platform origins is holding it back then? The FWD origins would be even more in focus in the Continental's rarefied air. I think the A8's staid exterior and relatively poor lease rates were its biggest setbacks.

spwolf

no it does not... and it will be reflected in sales of 7 series vs S class.

First of all, I dont doubt that LS will have a lot of flagship tech but thats not going to be crucial... in this class, more crucial are the looks... it has to look different and like a freaking Yacht. It cant look like best built car interior ever, it has to be more than that.

Thats where 7 series fails and where S class wins.


Oh yeah, when it comes to tech, BMW also has sub-par autobrake tech right now which is far more important than key with LCD. Maybe they will improve it with 7 series, but last BMW tested by EuroNCAP did not fare that well and IIHS X5 with optional expensive system couldnt avoid crash at low 25mpg (which base system in XC90 avoided for instance). IIHS tests are outdated by now, testing with 25mph as high end speed when EuroNCAP tests with 55 mph and JNCAP with 40MPH. They all need to start testing at even higher speeds as top end, so they can advance these systems even more.

situman

Anyone that's objective and sat in the new S class will see how cheap the interior is. The backseat has two plastic 99 cent flip down vanity mirror that unfolds from the ceiling. Hard plastics galore and whats with the number pad on the dash that looked like some 1990 dial phone got robbed by the dash designer?

situman

What the LS needs is an F-sport model with extra guts. A turbo V8 with 450 - 475 HP, while the base non F sport model with around 400HP. Take a page from Steve Jobs and at the very end of the unveiling, roll out an F model with a twin turbo V8 with 550 - 600 hp as a "one more thing". Make a statement that Lexus is serious about moving up in the world stage of luxury cars with the performance to back it up. Enough with the optional visual and enhanced handling packages. Just walk up to those damn cheating Germans, look them in the eye and smile.

Superes350

What cheap interior and number pad?

situman

I stand corrected about the number pad. However, I'm holding my stance on the poor quality of the interior in real life.

Superes350

If the interior quality is poor in person, then how bad is the LS460 to you, because the S550 is definitely better than the LS460 in terms of design and quality.

rominl

iTrader: (4)

if you think these flagships are dictated by their resale market and value then i can only say you are far from the primary buyers that these brands are targeting. a lot of these rich people they pay high dollars to lease these flagships for few years and move on to the next one happily. they don't give a damn about resale.

the current LS interior is not bad, noticeable step up from the 07-12 models. but trying to say it's very close to the w222 s clas? whatever

i agree the ball is in lexus' hands, i said it way back in 2013 when i reviewed the LS. but seriously you should try not to focus as much on value and resale on flagship luxury

actually that bmw 7 keyfob imho is something i can totally live without -- at least for now. i don't know if the new fob is better, but the one they have now you have to charge it every night, it's big and heavy, that's just stupid. i already complained about the LS key getting bigger.

i was under the impression that they will debut the car in jan 2016 in tokyo, which then i expect the car to hit dealerships in late summer as 2017 models. so that would make the current one 4 model years.

but yes if it is pushed out to summer 2017 as 2018 model then it's 5 years. i don't think we know enough for anything to be factual yet

paint quality? since i had both the ls460l and s550 i think i am qualified to talk a little bit about paint quality.

the paint on my ls460l was far from impressive. yes it's 2-stage hand wet sand and whatever, the car looks wonderful in the showroom, but it couldn't stand road test well. 2 chips in the first 2 weeks, 1 down to metal. paint were exceptionally soft and scratches / swirls appear very easily.

the paint on my s550 was not as shiny and wet looking as the ls460l, but it's hard as hell. their crystal clear coat (i forgot the exact term) is very hard and durable, it's actually much harder to polish because it's so hard. it doesn't have as much orange peel as bmw.

truth is on the road, i see a lot of old ls460 and s550 (talking about 2007) and i think the s550 paint last better

having a sport model is the LAST thing the LS need at this moment. i will agree the LS can use better driving dynamics though. talking about being sporty in the compact and midsize make sense, but in the large flagship? people need to see how many s63 mb actually sells. no doubt it's a statement car, but i think the LS has a lot to cover first before trying to catch this extremely niche market

Superes350

Another thing to consider is how long Lexus keeps these platforms around. If they don't significantly change it, it's going to be outclassed much faster than the current generation was.

blacksc400

iTrader: (4)

^^^ This, all I want is the newest, best, most luxury, and fits my taste that's on the market. Lease it for 3 years or even less, and turn that in and move on to my next new car. I don't care about resale value and longevity/reliability at all, since most new cars won't have anything major in their first 213 years of life.

Mr. Burns

IMO the FWD platform is a "nail in the coffin" deficiency that rules out the A8 amongst potential buyers of these types of cars in the face of no other outstanding virtue that it offers over its competitors.

Resale value is an indicator of how desirable the car continues to be amongst a second set of buyers. It is a measure of a car's merit more than its badge.

No resale is not a factor for new car buyers of these vehicles, but when a car like the S-class billed regularly as "the best car in the world" starts to depreciate rapidly after the first set of primarily brand-concious buyers are done with it, it's a good indication of its poor merit in reality.

I challenge you to go look at ANY black factory-standard non-designo W221 S-class you can find anywhere and show me how it's an acceptable paint finish for a $100k flagship luxury sedan from one of the most revered and talked-up brands in the auto industry. The level of orange peel and poor lustre is sad. Not only that, but the car's entire bodywork, surfacing, etc... is just amateur. If there was one area where the W222 was a big leap forward over the W221, it was this - and in the process it adopted a more L-finesse-esque bodywork.

mmarshall

Not surprising, considering that the S-class, significantly more-so than the LS, is designed more for higher average speeds on the German Autobahns. Obviously, the faster you are traveling, on average, the more likely you will be to get paint chips.

I agree with you, though, that, in many cases, Toyota/Lexus paint gives more of a deep/wet-gloss look than what is typical on Mercedes products. Among, German makes, though, some Audis also have that wet-shine look.

Dave600hL

Are you talking about a about another S-class non of us have seen?

rominl

iTrader: (4)

again you are trying to talk about value, which i will totally agree with you that lexus is better value. it would be stupid to argue that. but no matter how you spin it, you just can't deny the presence and prestige status of the s class. just go and get the total sales numbers of LS vs S from 2007 to 2012 and we will talk about which car has a better presence in this segment. and i am not even going to discount the fact that most LS sold are swb whereas S doesn't even have swb here in the US.

and you still don't get the idea that second set of buyers have much less influence on the overall presence of the flagship audience that manufacturer cares about.

you don't have to challenge me. my ls460l was black and i had first hand experience about the car paint quality. so unless you actually own either a s550 or ls460 in black over period of time, you can feel however you want but i think my words carry more weight.

now i do agree with you, i think the 07-09 s class exterior was not as desirable than the 07-09 LS. but at the same time i can also say the 10-13 s class exterior improvement from the headlights to talights, it's far better than the less than impressive upgrades on the LS of the same period. and f-finesse? give me a break, we all know how l-finess is after the 06-12 lexus era, you don't see that at all anymore

Mr. Burns

I'm not at all arguing about value.

I'm arguing about the real-world merits of the vehicle outside of media hype over the initial years.

If a car depreciates rapidly, it is an indication that it isn't very good, whereas new car sales are not always a good indicator of that since buyers are motivated by brand image etc... This is time telling you how good the car actually was. The point is that regardless of the media hype today, it is very possible for Lexus to outdo the W222 on merit, even if it's not necessarily reflected in higher sales.

It has nothing to do with market presence or sales, which I wasn't concerned with. The LS historically has been the #1 best selling flagship luxury sedan in the US. This trend only ended in 2011.

L-finesse as in 2007 LS460 with soft refined surfaces that have now been incorporated into the W222, a big departure from the hard unrefined surfaces that characterized the W221 and every MB thereafter up to the W222.