mmarshall

Yep. That's why I said I was basically staying out of that one. TV commercials love to slant data.

That's where Ford is really getting hit with their hybrid EPA numbers. (this isn't a commercial, but Ford having to pay out settlements in real life). I'm basically on Ford's side with that one. Too many different factors affect real-world mileage (I've done several Car Chat threads on how to get the best mileage)....and I don't think that Ford should have to pay out settlements/fines to cover all those different factors.

Sulu

But shouldn't Ford have to pay if they were caught (or admitted) to cheating?

EPA allows manufacturers to test their own vehicles for fuel consumption, in line with EPA's rules. Vehicles are tested and fuel economy measured in the lab on rollers. Those numbers are then supposed to be adjusted to take into account factors that cannot be measured in the lab, including aerodynamic drag, rolling resistance of tires and drivetrain losses. This adjustment factor is derived from a coastdown test in the real world.

The coastdown test is supposed to take into account much of the "many different factors [that] affect real-world mileage". With the EPA's current 5-cycle testing and adjustment with the coastdown test, fuel economy numbers that can be very similar to real world results can be obtained, BUT ONLY if the auto manufacturer does not cheat.

Ford admitted to using the wrong adjustment factor, just as Hyundai did.

Ford also admitted to using the same fuel economy numbers for 2 different cars. The EPA allows this if 2 different cars have the same engine and transmission, but are also similar in size and weight. Ford admitted to using the same numbers for the Fusion and C-Max, 2 very different cars (just look at their shapes!).

tex2670

But--isn't the issue that Ford's numbers vary way more than other mfgs? And, if so, why is that? What I learned from the Hyundai incident a few years ago is that the mfgs (I thought) self-report; the EPA doesn't independently test each car to determine mpg numbers.

So--if Ford's numbers are more significantly off than the makers of other hybrids, it leaves open the possibility that they are manipulating the tests to publish stellar mpg numbers that are more skewed than competitors.

mmarshall

A large percentage of the money that Ford has already paid out (as I understand it) was voluntary, not court-ordered. It was reached in private settlements. Th husband of a friend of mine, in fact, recently got a check from Ford over the matter on his C-Max...even though he himself is satisfied with his C-Max and has no significant complaints with it. She didn't tell me the exact amount, and I didn't ask.....sometimes it is best not to ask too many questions.

spwolf

it was obvious that they cheated on EPA tests as soon as the cars started delivery... there was huge number of complains from their drivers of not hitting anywhere close to EPA under any circumstances... worst was that many people traded their older hybrids thinking Fords will get better or similar mpg (depending of what their old car was) and Fords ended up getting a lot worse in real life than their previous hybrid did.

What I do find funny (a bit) is how many members here thought Ford was awesome and how Toyota is now behind :-)

mmarshall

For several years, beginning with the first Ford hybrid model (the 1Gen Escape), Ford used Toyota-designed hybrid components under license. Now, they generally use their own.

Sulu

The supplier of the hybrid components to Ford has nothing to do with the wrongly labelled fuel economy of Ford hybrid vehicles. Ford cheated (or at least tried to take advantage of EPA's rules for measuring fuel economy).

Toys4RJill

I agree , the supplier has nothing to do with it. This is Ford's fault regardless if it was intentional or an error. The fact is, errors like this should not be happening.

spwolf

whats worse is that Ford has been deceiving those owners for quite a long time before this stated change of EPA... lot of people thought their cars were broken and went to visit their dealers several times or more, and they tried to convince them it is their driving error :-).

There were numerous reports on forums on how people try 3-4 different C-Maxes to see if they can get above 40 MPG under any circumstances.

mmarshall

Hold on a second. You two misinterpreted my post. I was not claiming that the old Toyota hardware that Ford used under license was the cause of the inaccurate MPG numbers. In fact, just the opposite......my point was that the MPG numbers were NOT challenged back when Ford used the Toyota hybrid components on the old Escape/Mariner and Fusion/Milan/MKZ. In that part of it, I generally agree with you both. The MPG controversy came later, after Ford started using their own hybrid designs. But it still does not change my basic opinion that Ford should not be held liable and have to pay out big sums for it. After all, the company is paying out money even without going to court. The friend, who I mentioned a couple of posts back, told me again this morning her husband just got a SECOND check in the mail from Ford over the C-Max issue....and he was never any part of the legal action to start with; he was satisfied with his car.


Were you as quick to toss stones at Toyota a few years ago over the sticking-throttle-issues as you are today to toss stones at Ford and GM?

Sulu

And you misinterpreted my post, Mike. I am not blaming Toyota hardware AND I am not blaming Ford hardware either; I am not blaming any hardware. I am blaming Ford for gaming the system and playing with the numbers.

mmarshall

OK, fair enough. I'll blame Ford, too, if it can be shown that they in fact did doctor number deliberately to try and give a false impression. But I've seen too many cases over the years of where auto firms were hit with what I considered frivolous judgements, even over MPG issues like this one. Of course, Ford HAS done some some serious misconduct over the years.....the early 70s Pinto gas tank and frame design was a classic example where the fines/awards against them were fully justified, and people are hurt or killed needlessly.

bitkahuna

iTrader: (20)

all - maybe time to get back to the mkc.

Toys4RJill

mmarshall, deliberate or not, Ford should not of allowed it to happen. Ford is a big enough company to have checks and balances to protect from this.

mmarshall

Let's pay attention to the moderator. He's right. We've argued this one long enough, and all made our points.


Back to the MKC, Does anyone in CL own or have regular access to one? (I know they are hard to get right now, but some may be in CL hands). If so, chime in.......let's hear what you have to report. Also, let's hear some of your shopping experiences, if you are currently looking for one.....if they are demanding full-list or willing to deal.