Lexus Unfazed by LS Decline as S Class, Model S Grow
07-14-14, 08:07 AM
#196
Lexus Fanatic
iTrader: (20)
and an amazingly sophisticated suspension...http://www.mbusa.com/mercedes/vehicl...-S/model-S63V4
of course specs like that are going to cost a load. $141,450 start
but then, per lexus website, the flagship (LS600hL) has 438HP, 0-60: 5.5seconds, and starts at $120,060.
the LS600hL is an awesome vehicle too, but the S63 is 15% more which is peanuts when you're spending that kind of coin. of course options can make the S63 price go through the roof, but that level of customization is what people want.
a more reasonable comparison to the LS600hL though would be to an S550 4Matic (449HP, 0-60: 4.8seconds) which is $97,400 - a 'bargain'.
Last edited by bitkahuna; 07-14-14 at 08:14 AM.
07-14-14, 08:35 AM
#197
Lexus Test Driver
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Lexus is a company that currently has an "identity crisis".
The gap between the Germans (excluding BMW) is widening, Lexus clearly peaked since it started till about 2007 (2IS, LS460 and 2007 ES350) were all killer products that redefined the game, LS460 was a technological prowess, IS350 established the 300HP V6 & the ES350 continued its role as a poster child of refinement.
Lexus clearly had it all under its belt. But fast forward 7-8yrs and this brand seems rather lost. The products lack consistency, the design language is all over the place, the overall package is seriously lacking when compared to their core rivals (Germans) Lexus is in trouble and now even their secondary rivals (Infiniti, Buick, Acura, Cadillac & Lincoln) are eating right into Lexus's lunch.
The moral of the story is that in a time where the Germans are improving their value proposition by offering sharper products at sharper prices, Lexus is offering lesser products than what they were capable of! Think of the downgrade in materials, downgrade in insulation used, downgrade in other areas where the rivals have truly eclipsed Lexus, at their own game!
The gap between the Germans (excluding BMW) is widening, Lexus clearly peaked since it started till about 2007 (2IS, LS460 and 2007 ES350) were all killer products that redefined the game, LS460 was a technological prowess, IS350 established the 300HP V6 & the ES350 continued its role as a poster child of refinement.
Lexus clearly had it all under its belt. But fast forward 7-8yrs and this brand seems rather lost. The products lack consistency, the design language is all over the place, the overall package is seriously lacking when compared to their core rivals (Germans) Lexus is in trouble and now even their secondary rivals (Infiniti, Buick, Acura, Cadillac & Lincoln) are eating right into Lexus's lunch.
The moral of the story is that in a time where the Germans are improving their value proposition by offering sharper products at sharper prices, Lexus is offering lesser products than what they were capable of! Think of the downgrade in materials, downgrade in insulation used, downgrade in other areas where the rivals have truly eclipsed Lexus, at their own game!
Last edited by yowps3; 07-14-14 at 09:41 AM.
07-14-14, 09:13 AM
#198
Lexus is a company that currently has an "identity crisis".
The gap between the Germans (excluding BMW) is widening, Lexus clearly peaked since it started till about 2007 (2IS, LS460 and 2007 ES350) were all killer products that redefined the game, LS460 was a technological prowess, IS350 established the 300HP V6 & the ES350 continued its role as a poster child of refinement.
Lexus clearly had it all under its belt. But fast forward 7-8yrs and this brand seems rather lost. The products lack consistency, the design language is all over the place, the overall package is seriously lacking when compared to their core rivals (Germans) Lexus is in trouble and now even their secondary rivals (Infiniti, Buick, Acura, Cadillac & Lincoln) are eating right into Lexus's lunch.
The moral of the story is that in a time where the Germans are improving their value proposition by offering sharper products at sharper prices, Lexus is offering lesser products than what they were capable of! Thing of the downgrade in materials, downgrade in insulation used, downgrade in other areas where the rivals have truly eclipsed Lexus at their own game!
The gap between the Germans (excluding BMW) is widening, Lexus clearly peaked since it started till about 2007 (2IS, LS460 and 2007 ES350) were all killer products that redefined the game, LS460 was a technological prowess, IS350 established the 300HP V6 & the ES350 continued its role as a poster child of refinement.
Lexus clearly had it all under its belt. But fast forward 7-8yrs and this brand seems rather lost. The products lack consistency, the design language is all over the place, the overall package is seriously lacking when compared to their core rivals (Germans) Lexus is in trouble and now even their secondary rivals (Infiniti, Buick, Acura, Cadillac & Lincoln) are eating right into Lexus's lunch.
The moral of the story is that in a time where the Germans are improving their value proposition by offering sharper products at sharper prices, Lexus is offering lesser products than what they were capable of! Thing of the downgrade in materials, downgrade in insulation used, downgrade in other areas where the rivals have truly eclipsed Lexus at their own game!
Mercedes has done a nice job on the S-class, but has completely thrown in the towel on the C-class, in essence saying "We can't make a competitive sport sedan, so we'll just make a small S-class". The new C is a nice car, but it's distinctly a Mercedes, and will turn off a lot of buyers looking for the sport it does not offer. Although, nothing much new there. MB knows what they are - a luxury car maker - and everything they do aligns with that. It's a good target, as people with more money tend to buy softly-sprung products with plush materials more than they care about dynamics, and so they do not need to do anything other than make very comfortable vehicles at very high prices.
Audi is pretty lost. It can't decide what to do with the next R8, either a radical redesign or further tweaks to the existing. All their cars are due for new generations in order to keep up with MB & BMW. Expect the new B9 A4/A5 next year or so, and the A8 to follow.
BMW is off the road in the dirt chasing sales. They've left behind what made them famous in an effort to offer everything to anyone willing to look at their portfolio. Sure, the M3/M4 seem to be good, but all other M products have turned into AMG-like cars (meaning not much handling, lots of power), and their core of 3 & 5 series SPORT sedans are being outdone by Lexus! The 5 series has been rated as the worst in its class, actually.
I'm not sure what you're seeing.
07-14-14, 09:15 AM
#199
Guest
Posts: n/a
per their website, S63: 577HP, 0-60: 3.9seconds and an amazingly sophisticated suspension...
http://www.mbusa.com/mercedes/vehicl...-S/model-S63V4
of course specs like that are going to cost a load. $141,450 start
but then, per lexus website, the flagship (LS600hL) has 438HP, 0-60: 5.5seconds, and starts at $120,060.
the LS600hL is an awesome vehicle too, but the S63 is 15% more which is peanuts when you're spending that kind of coin. of course options can make the S63 price go through the roof, but that level of customization is what people want.
a more reasonable comparison to the LS600hL though would be to an S550 4Matic (449HP, 0-60: 4.8seconds) which is $97,400 - a 'bargain'.
and an amazingly sophisticated suspension...http://www.mbusa.com/mercedes/vehicl...-S/model-S63V4
of course specs like that are going to cost a load. $141,450 start
but then, per lexus website, the flagship (LS600hL) has 438HP, 0-60: 5.5seconds, and starts at $120,060.
the LS600hL is an awesome vehicle too, but the S63 is 15% more which is peanuts when you're spending that kind of coin. of course options can make the S63 price go through the roof, but that level of customization is what people want.
a more reasonable comparison to the LS600hL though would be to an S550 4Matic (449HP, 0-60: 4.8seconds) which is $97,400 - a 'bargain'.
When I was a super-moderator I remember when we posted the picture up here as a spy photo and we were asked by I believe TMG to take it down right away as it was a secret project.
Lexus is a company that currently has an "identity crisis".
The gap between the Germans (excluding BMW) is widening, Lexus clearly peaked since it started till about 2007 (2IS, LS460 and 2007 ES350) were all killer products that redefined the game, LS460 was a technological prowess, IS350 established the 300HP V6 & the ES350 continued its role as a poster child of refinement.
Lexus clearly had it all under its belt. But fast forward 7-8yrs and this brand seems rather lost. The products lack consistency, the design language is all over the place, the overall package is seriously lacking when compared to their core rivals (Germans) Lexus is in trouble and now even their secondary rivals (Infiniti, Buick, Acura, Cadillac & Lincoln) are eating right into Lexus's lunch.
The moral of the story is that in a time where the Germans are improving their value proposition by offering sharper products at sharper prices, Lexus is offering lesser products than what they were capable of! Thing of the downgrade in materials, downgrade in insulation used, downgrade in other areas where the rivals have truly eclipsed Lexus at their own game!
The gap between the Germans (excluding BMW) is widening, Lexus clearly peaked since it started till about 2007 (2IS, LS460 and 2007 ES350) were all killer products that redefined the game, LS460 was a technological prowess, IS350 established the 300HP V6 & the ES350 continued its role as a poster child of refinement.
Lexus clearly had it all under its belt. But fast forward 7-8yrs and this brand seems rather lost. The products lack consistency, the design language is all over the place, the overall package is seriously lacking when compared to their core rivals (Germans) Lexus is in trouble and now even their secondary rivals (Infiniti, Buick, Acura, Cadillac & Lincoln) are eating right into Lexus's lunch.
The moral of the story is that in a time where the Germans are improving their value proposition by offering sharper products at sharper prices, Lexus is offering lesser products than what they were capable of! Thing of the downgrade in materials, downgrade in insulation used, downgrade in other areas where the rivals have truly eclipsed Lexus at their own game!
07-14-14, 09:18 AM
#200
Formerly Bad Co
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What?
Mercedes has done a nice job on the S-class, but has completely thrown in the towel on the C-class, in essence saying "We can't make a competitive sport sedan, so we'll just make a small S-class". The new C is a nice car, but it's distinctly a Mercedes, and will turn off a lot of buyers looking for the sport it does not offer. Although, nothing much new there. MB knows what they are - a luxury car maker - and everything they do aligns with that. It's a good target, as people with more money tend to buy softly-sprung products with plush materials more than they care about dynamics, and so they do not need to do anything other than make very comfortable vehicles at very high prices.
Audi is pretty lost. It can't decide what to do with the next R8, either a radical redesign or further tweaks to the existing. All their cars are due for new generations in order to keep up with MB & BMW. Expect the new B9 A4/A5 next year or so, and the A8 to follow.
BMW is off the road in the dirt chasing sales. They've left behind what made them famous in an effort to offer everything to anyone willing to look at their portfolio. Sure, the M3/M4 seem to be good, but all other M products have turned into AMG-like cars (meaning not much handling, lots of power), and their core of 3 & 5 series SPORT sedans are being outdone by Lexus! The 5 series has been rated as the worst in its class, actually.
I'm not sure what you're seeing.
Mercedes has done a nice job on the S-class, but has completely thrown in the towel on the C-class, in essence saying "We can't make a competitive sport sedan, so we'll just make a small S-class". The new C is a nice car, but it's distinctly a Mercedes, and will turn off a lot of buyers looking for the sport it does not offer. Although, nothing much new there. MB knows what they are - a luxury car maker - and everything they do aligns with that. It's a good target, as people with more money tend to buy softly-sprung products with plush materials more than they care about dynamics, and so they do not need to do anything other than make very comfortable vehicles at very high prices.
Audi is pretty lost. It can't decide what to do with the next R8, either a radical redesign or further tweaks to the existing. All their cars are due for new generations in order to keep up with MB & BMW. Expect the new B9 A4/A5 next year or so, and the A8 to follow.
BMW is off the road in the dirt chasing sales. They've left behind what made them famous in an effort to offer everything to anyone willing to look at their portfolio. Sure, the M3/M4 seem to be good, but all other M products have turned into AMG-like cars (meaning not much handling, lots of power), and their core of 3 & 5 series SPORT sedans are being outdone by Lexus! The 5 series has been rated as the worst in its class, actually.
I'm not sure what you're seeing.
07-14-14, 09:34 AM
#201
Hey cmk1 great perspective and I honestly am not really disagreeing with you outside of the point that the 1989 LS won't happen again. Ever. The only people possibly would be the Chinese in 20 years or so. Hyundai/Kia could not come close to replicating it even with the price advantage.
I just think it is a false expectation to have and again, we have people in here complaining the LS is "cheap" so if Lexus undercuts the competitors again they will again post that monkey crap up.
1989 was 1989, the LS 400 was historic, chosen by many experts in the field as one of the top 100 influential cars of all time. It clearly completely altered the shape of the luxury field. I don't expect any new LS to do that because most every brand is fully awake.
Never have I stated the LS is superior in my reviews and posts. Never have I stated it has no negatives. Quite frankly my LS has the lowest V-8 power and also the lowest rated MPG. I would like massaging seats. I would like red leather. I would like the rear entertainment package on the F-sport.
For my needs, the LS 460 F-sport is perfect and its surpassed all expectations I had. I envy previous LS owners who had the opportunity to own it over the years!! What a car! If there was no F-sport I would not be driving a LS. Lexus is on to something here
I just think it is a false expectation to have and again, we have people in here complaining the LS is "cheap" so if Lexus undercuts the competitors again they will again post that monkey crap up.
1989 was 1989, the LS 400 was historic, chosen by many experts in the field as one of the top 100 influential cars of all time. It clearly completely altered the shape of the luxury field. I don't expect any new LS to do that because most every brand is fully awake.
Never have I stated the LS is superior in my reviews and posts. Never have I stated it has no negatives. Quite frankly my LS has the lowest V-8 power and also the lowest rated MPG. I would like massaging seats. I would like red leather. I would like the rear entertainment package on the F-sport.
For my needs, the LS 460 F-sport is perfect and its surpassed all expectations I had. I envy previous LS owners who had the opportunity to own it over the years!! What a car! If there was no F-sport I would not be driving a LS. Lexus is on to something here
Well to me, it's not really about it being inferior or superior. I was mostly speaking from my frustration due to impatient curiosity of course, but understand why it cannot be 1989 again on that front. I usually try to take an objective viewpoint on things, but in this case I only want the best possible for them and we are both certain they will deliver. At least the 460 did have a bump in power, which is reasonable for a place-holding facelift. I assume that they believe US F-Sport drivers won't be "driven" and omitted the rear entertainment. I have to wonder if it's Lexus Corporate in Nagoya responsible for such decisions or Lexus USA. It is lovely though, especially in white. I just don't understand why 4 full years, instead 3 to 3 1/2, so I expect the best. I already know about the next XJ personally, the G11 might be rinse/repeat, W222 is already out, and not liking Audi's direction.
In the grand scheme of things the LS is doing great, I mean it really is a 8yrs old car yet it is outselling most newer rivals. That is a testimonial to how good & timeless it is.
The XF40 LS makes the W-221 S-class seem like a chrysler product in comparison, despite the fact they the W221 is actually newer than the XF40 LS
And I have no doubt in my mind that the next LS will be another extraordinary LS
The XF40 LS makes the W-221 S-class seem like a chrysler product in comparison, despite the fact they the W221 is actually newer than the XF40 LS
And I have no doubt in my mind that the next LS will be another extraordinary LS
The terrible photos of a used 2007 model (or pre-facelift) you provided? I'd choose the 2007-09 LS460L anytime over the 2007-09 S550, as I never really liked that S version. It was clear it was hampered by the Maybach's presence, until Daimler later stopped caring about not usurping Maybach in the late 00s.BTW, the W221 was concept developed and designed even way before the LS430 facelift came out. How is that newer? As already said by rominl, it officially debuted in June 2005 and LS460 in Jan. 2006. Do not really like it when one makes such a derogatory, nonfactual comparison.
This is from 2002 (see pre-facelift LS430). The interior was also final back then, so that's a 2001-02 design effort you are comparing to Lexus efforts in 2004 (below).
The last 100% ground up S-Class was the costly W140. They have been trying to consistently improve reliability, after the W220 nightmare. The next S-Class will be the revolution and may be named outside of the W22_ codes. The new LS might use a modular platform though and so will some future Lexus models.
IMO I feel it's a huge monumental leap. I don't know one car that offers the amount options and features.
It's hard to trump the KING when you’re already the KING.
When you begin to look at the brochure you realize this car is the epitome of luxury.
http://www.mbusa.com/vcm/MB/DigitalA...14-S-Class.pdf
I also feel Mr. Smith is full of B.S. Every car company should worry about the other regardless. While I feel the next LS will be nice. In order for it to match the S class. Lexus is going to have to up the price.
It's hard to trump the KING when you’re already the KING.
When you begin to look at the brochure you realize this car is the epitome of luxury.
http://www.mbusa.com/vcm/MB/DigitalA...14-S-Class.pdf
I also feel Mr. Smith is full of B.S. Every car company should worry about the other regardless. While I feel the next LS will be nice. In order for it to match the S class. Lexus is going to have to up the price.
Last edited by Carmaker1; 07-14-14 at 09:45 AM.
07-14-14, 09:47 AM
#202
Some here are using the excuse that the S Class costs a lot more than the LS and thus it should be a better car. Well, when I first made it public here back in the winter that I had switched from being a loyal LS customer to the all new 2014 S550 and a couple months later took delivery on April 5, I said that I paid about $104K after a discount of about $4500. To have purchased the new LS 460L with all the options except for the executive seating, the MSRP would have come out to over $100K. Assuming I would have gotten an even larger discount from my Lexus dealer, perhaps I would have paid about $95K for the new LS. The kicker is that quite a few of the incredible options that I have with the S550 are not available on the LS. So, assuming (fairly bold assumption I might add) that I would have gotten this larger discount from Lexus, I paid about $9K more for a car that by everyone's review is on another level above any other luxury car at this time.
07-14-14, 12:11 PM
#203
Some here are using the excuse that the S Class costs a lot more than the LS and thus it should be a better car. Well, when I first made it public here back in the winter that I had switched from being a loyal LS customer to the all new 2014 S550 and a couple months later took delivery on April 5, I said that I paid about $104K after a discount of about $4500. To have purchased the new LS 460L with all the options except for the executive seating, the MSRP would have come out to over $100K. Assuming I would have gotten an even larger discount from my Lexus dealer, perhaps I would have paid about $95K for the new LS. The kicker is that quite a few of the incredible options that I have with the S550 are not available on the LS. So, assuming (fairly bold assumption I might add) that I would have gotten this larger discount from Lexus, I paid about $9K more for a car that by everyone's review is on another level above any other luxury car at this time.
07-14-14, 12:13 PM
#204
Lexus Fanatic
iTrader: (20)
ok, you're right, lexus has NOTHING to compete with the S63/S65. 
of course i remember that interesting one off. i don't care if it was commissioned by God though, because it's not available.
lexus has a lot of good stuff coming out but does too much 'teasing'. the nx won't be out until q4, the rc-f, when will that be out? and lf-lc?
it's getting a bit like that other brand you hate.
We were teased with a competitor the TMG 650 which we found out was commissioned by Akio Toyoda himself. I guess you were not aware of these Lexus tidbits.
lexus has a lot of good stuff coming out but does too much 'teasing'. the nx won't be out until q4, the rc-f, when will that be out? and lf-lc?
it's getting a bit like that other brand you hate.
07-14-14, 12:17 PM
#205
Lexus Fanatic
iTrader: (20)
Some here are using the excuse that the S Class costs a lot more than the LS and thus it should be a better car. Well, when I first made it public here back in the winter that I had switched from being a loyal LS customer to the all new 2014 S550 and a couple months later took delivery on April 5, I said that I paid about $104K after a discount of about $4500. To have purchased the new LS 460L with all the options except for the executive seating, the MSRP would have come out to over $100K. Assuming I would have gotten an even larger discount from my Lexus dealer, perhaps I would have paid about $95K for the new LS. The kicker is that quite a few of the incredible options that I have with the S550 are not available on the LS. So, assuming (fairly bold assumption I might add) that I would have gotten this larger discount from Lexus, I paid about $9K more for a car that by everyone's review is on another level above any other luxury car at this time.
07-14-14, 01:36 PM
#206
Guest
Posts: n/a
Some here are using the excuse that the S Class costs a lot more than the LS and thus it should be a better car. Well, when I first made it public here back in the winter that I had switched from being a loyal LS customer to the all new 2014 S550 and a couple months later took delivery on April 5, I said that I paid about $104K after a discount of about $4500. To have purchased the new LS 460L with all the options except for the executive seating, the MSRP would have come out to over $100K. Assuming I would have gotten an even larger discount from my Lexus dealer, perhaps I would have paid about $95K for the new LS. The kicker is that quite a few of the incredible options that I have with the S550 are not available on the LS. So, assuming (fairly bold assumption I might add) that I would have gotten this larger discount from Lexus, I paid about $9K more for a car that by everyone's review is on another level above any other luxury car at this time.
The funny thing though is in America, we only start with the S550 so people might think that is all that is offered. Here is the U.K site, the S-class can be had in
I-4
V-6
V-8
S63
S65
diesel
hybrid
engine choices. The S550 here is called S500 there.
http://www2.mercedes-benz.co.uk/cont...del-navi:_w222
ok, you're right, lexus has NOTHING to compete with the S63/S65.
of course i remember that interesting one off. i don't care if it was commissioned by God though, because it's not available.
lexus has a lot of good stuff coming out but does too much 'teasing'. the nx won't be out until q4, the rc-f, when will that be out? and lf-lc? it's getting a bit like that other brand you hate.
of course i remember that interesting one off. i don't care if it was commissioned by God though, because it's not available.
lexus has a lot of good stuff coming out but does too much 'teasing'. the nx won't be out until q4, the rc-f, when will that be out? and lf-lc?
it's getting a bit like that other brand you hate.
07-14-14, 04:54 PM
#210
Did you think that these cars are coming out in next few years?