FrankReynoldsCPA

In the past it seems like Ford was never very serious when they talked about Lincoln. Like they thought we were idiots or something. But I think they're repenting. The MKC showed us that they are thinking more seriously about what it means to produce meaningful vehicles. If this new platform comes to fruition, I think they'll have a winner. Sometimes it seems like Ford's biggest weakness is their own desire to limit themselves. I hope they don't come out with an awesome platform and then only stick turbo 4's in them.

mmarshall

The MKC is a great start, but it's just that.....only a start. They have also got to get working on a true flagship replacement for the departed Town Car. The MKS just isn't cutting it. And even the (admittedly) excellent MKC could also, IMO, use one big improvement......I agree with you that it needs a V6 instead of the turbo 4s, though the two 4-bangers seem to be selling well enough just as they are.

SW17LS

What other real luxury car brand functions without an independent dealer network? I don't mean Audi pairing with Porsche or Jaguar with Land Rover.

mmarshall

Chryslers (including the 300) are usually sold with Dodges and Jeeps, though the Chrysler name itself probably straddles the line between luxury and upmarket, and is definitely not a Tier-1 brand.

Cadillacs are/were often sold with GMCs, and, (before they were axed) Hummers.

BMWs are often sold with Minis...but not at every BMW shop.

In the D.C. area where I live, Volvo shops are also usually paired with other brands....but, like Chrysler, is not considered a Tier-1 brand.

SW17LS

Chrysler is in no way shape or form a luxury brand. It's a mainstream brand. I can't believe you would put Chrysler and Volvo on the same level. What?!?

Cadillac dealers sometimes sell other makes, but Cadillac is the dominant make. Not so with Lincoln. Lincolns are sold at Ford dealers. Cadillac dealers sell GMCs. Different.

Minis are sold at BMW dealers. again, different.

You are seriously reaching here. Bottom line is...Lincoln has no dealers. Dealers are an important part of the luxury car ownership experience. No dealers=no credibility as a true alternative to a real luxury car

mmarshall

They are upmarket/borderline luxury brands, but NOT Tier one. I was careful to point that out.

True to some extent. But, from here, Lincoln has only one direction to go....up.


I simply answered your question. Some makes may or may not be considered true (Tier-1) luxury cars, but are still clearly upmarket brands.


The number of dealerships, though, does not necessarily determine if a vehicle is considered luxury-grade or not. Take Astons, for example....about as "Luxury"-grade as a GT tourer can get. You often really have to search to find a dealership.

SW17LS

Chrysler sells cars as cheap as $21,000. I don't even consider them an upmarket brand.

And thats the point, nobody shopping for a Lexus, BMW, Audi, MB is going to look at a Chrysler...or a Lincoln. The only exception there is maybe the ES and the MKZ. Lincoln wants to be in that club...and they need Lincoln dealers that can give the customer the experience they want to do that.

You don't get it. I'm not talking about number of dealers, I'm talking about DEALERS. Lincoln has no dealers, they combined all their dealers in with Ford. Aston Martin is an entirely different sort of brand, its a small run, semi-bespoke carmaker. Lincoln is or at least was and wants to be, a volume luxury brand like Lexus, BMW, MB, Audi, Cadillac. They can't do that if a customer has to park next to a Ford Fiesta when they go shop for the car or service it. Those buyers won't take Lincoln seriously. The decision to do away with their stand alone dealerships is really going to hurt Lincoln's chances of becoming a brand that image conscious and experience seeking luxury shoppers want.

This argument is an argument YOU made about other brands yourself!

mmarshall

True, but they also range up into the 60K range for loaded SRT 300s. That's why I put them in the borderline luxury range. But I agree, it probable has little bearing on Lincoln's future (the thread topic), so no sense dwelling on it.

Hard to say. Everyone is different. Though there are many similarities, no two people necessarily shop for a car in exactly the same way. I get a number of people who come to me for advice after they have been out looking for themselves and can't really decide what they want.


And the current MKZ is one reason why Lincoln is not doing better then it is. The current ES, despite its own inferiority to past ES models, still trumps the MKZ in several ways.



Yes, I do get it.....you're talking about independent dealerships. The obvious reason Ford and Lincoln dealers are co-located is to save money. It was one of the reasons (among several) why Ford was able to avoid a GM/Chrysler-style buyout.

SW17LS

And Ford sells $60k+ King Ranch F trucks, and Chevy sells $70k loaded Suburbans and Tahoes. Its meaningless, they aren't luxury car companies.

$60,000 is not as much money as it used to be.

Actually companies know pretty much what their consumers are doing and what they are looking for. Companies pay a lot of money to know. I'm the consumer these companies are looking for. I'm in my 30s, I have high income and god willing it will get higher, I enjoy driving luxury cars....and I'm not going to go to a Ford dealer and shop for a Lincoln. Its not that I have an issue with Lincoln's brand per-say, its because they don't offer the support and the experience I'm accustomed too and want. I interact with a lot of people similar to me...and none of them would consider a Lincoln either. I and they WOULD consider a Cadillac. What is the difference? Dealers. Cadillac offers the experience we want.

Like I said, I like the MKZ and the MKC...but I'm not interested in being a customer of a Ford dealer. I was that before I became successful. This is the mentality.

I actually disagree. I think the MKZ is a more compelling car than the ES. Its more stylish, feels more special. People buy the ES because its more accessable (i.e. because Lexus has dealers), and because its a Lexus.

Whatever the reasons, the effect on Lincoln is huge. I'll make the prediction today...Lincoln will never achieve parity with foreign tier one carmakers because of that choice. If Ford is happy to compete with Acura, Infiniti, Volvo, etc then thats fine...but if they are really trying to break into the "real" luxury market...then no matter how great the product, it will never catch because a buyer has to go to a Ford dealer and look at it. The same is true of Hyundai and the Equus or Kia and the K900.

JT4

I happen to agree with you.. Lincoln being sold through Ford does not do well for it's "Luxury" Image.. No different than if GM decided to do away with Cadillac dealers and sell and service Caddy's through Chevy.. It wouldn't work.

Hyundai trying to sell a $45K Genesis or a $65K Equus next to a $14K Elantra on the showroom floor is not good for their luxury image either. They may be good cars, but does anyone really see someone cross shopping a Equus with an E-Class, 5 Series or GS, no less an S-Class or 7 series as Hyundai intended.

IMO most people shopping for those cars are not going to cross shop a Hyundai.

SW17LS

I'm going to post a thread. I drove the new Genesis today, both the V8 and the 6 AWD. I'll just say had I been in a position to and had my GS with me...I would have traded it for the Genesis on the spot.

Anybody who buys a midsized luxury car and doesn't shop the Genesis is doing themselves a huge disservice. Its an awesome, awesome car.

As for the dealer...the Hyundai dealer was a Hyundai dealer. Thats the only downside.

JT4

And therein lies the big problem with Hyundai trying to lure the premium / luxury car buyer away from MB, BMW, Lexus, Audi etc..

These customers (you and I ) are used to a certain level of service that Hyundai is having difficulty providing. Even my Cadillac dealers service department and waiting area from an aesthetics standpoint can't compete with the MB, Lexus or Acura dealers I have used.. I know that isn't the most important thing, and in all fairness the service has been good at Cadillac although it seems things take forever to get done.

But something is missing when you bring in a CTS-V for service and they give you a rental car from Enterprise that is filthy inside and out as a loaner. Also not the most important thing but they don't get it and neither does Hyundai (from what I have been told).

As I said in my previous post, Hyundai may make good vehicles now but I just don't see many cross shopping the Hyundai premium models when looking at Lexus, MB, BMW etc...

I happen to think the Genesis is a great looking car, but I still don't see myself ever spending $40K-$50K on a Hyundai. I would rather have your GS, even if it costs more but that's only my opinion..

If you decide to go with the Genesis I'm sure you'll be happy they're nice cars.. Good Luck.

SW17LS

I agree that brand is going to be an issue to get people to go drive a Genesis, but once they drive one unless they have an entirely different set of criteria than I do, I don't see how they wouldn't really like it. You gotta drive one. I drove both the V8 and the V6 AWD on probably 25 minute drives each and rode in both as the others with me drove them for about the same length of time.

I too love my GS...but I am being 100% honest had I been in a position to, I would have traded it for the Genesis on the spot. Its not that the GS is a more expensive car, if buying that $10k premium is going to come back to you in resale probably, its that its not as good a car as the Genesis. Its one thing to pay more for a premium brand, but its one thing to pay more for a premium brand who's product you don't like as much. The old Genesis was almost as good a car for a lot less money. This is a better car for less money...thats a different comparison.

Anybody who is buying a $45,000-$65,000 car in this segment really is doing themselves a disservice if they don't set brand aside for 30 minutes and go drive a Genesis with an open mind.

JT4

All very valid points..

I read your other thread and at least you have some time before you make a move.. A lot can happen between now and then..

SW17LS

Definitely have time. Part of the issue with Hyundai is value over time. If you have an older Lexus, you still have a nice Lexus. At what point does an older Hyundai become "...an older Hyundai". Even though I lease, I really feel like at any time I can make that decision to buy out my lease and drive the car for 10 years. Even at 10 years old, its still a nice Lexus.