bitkahuna

iTrader: (20)

while there are still v8s available, they're now VERY expensive for the most part.

car makers, with a gun to their head, have no choice but to abandon them in more and more models, required to reduce weight, increase fuel economy.

because there are still people interested in horsepower and performance, car makers are required to add turbos to more and more 4 cylinder engines and pawn them off as 'luxury cars'.

the mb CLA is no luxury car. bmw's with 4 cylinder turbos are not luxury cars.

are these turbo 4 cylinder engines impressive technically? VERY! are they anything like as pleasant and sweet or responsive as an inline 6 or a v8? ABSOLUTELY NOT.

and while car companies CAN still offer what they want, tax and tariff policies continue to punish those who dare to want anything that isn't primarily focused on frugal fuel consumption, or CO2 emission levels. of course maybe these slow cars are meant to stop us exhaling as deeply, as that emits CO2 too.

and then there's fuel prices which have doubled in the u.s. in the past 6 years. that plus increased taxes and stagnant wages means fewer and fewer people will enjoy a decent engine. fortunately you have companies like ford offering a mustang with a decent v6 and v8.

and environmentalists and their paid for politicians and bureaucrats aren't done yet. from 2011 to 2016, avg mpg must improve 37%.
http://www.caranddriver.com/features...cafe-standards

the car makers are doing it so fans of govt intervention say that regulations have been 'good' for the industry. if that's true, then i guess we need more regulations.

oh and guess what, all that 'savings' in fuel economy has upsets state govts who are bawling about not getting enough revenue from gasoline sales now. so many are considering 'per mile' usage fees/taxes - of course they're unlikely to lower the gas tax and of these per miles schemes may in fact be tracking every vehicles position in the state at all times. what happens with out of state vehicles? i guess 'poor' people will get a 'credit' to offset their fee, making tax time even more complicated. good time to be an accountant or a lawyer...

the u.s. is now DROWNING in natural gas supply (and would have even more were the govt not hindering so much), and with support, we could have moved from oil to gas to a lot of use, like trucks (tractor-trailer type). this would have had an IMMENSE benefit to the u.s. economy, AND environmental footprint. but no... electric cars, hybrids, and tiny 4 bangers are the supported trend... even though electrics require grid power and epa has also pretty much blocked all new power plant production as well.

Hoovey689

iTrader: (16)

Damned if you do, damned if you don't

LexFather

Awful argument. Funny I am reading the Auto News paper and found the article I was reading online;

Here are the facts.
http://www.autonews.com/article/2014...n-fuel-economy

As you can see while 4 cylinder vehicle popularity is up, 6 and 8 cylinder vehicle sales are projected to stay relatively flat with a small decline. V-10s are out of fashion and V-12 sales are projected to rise. EV and electric car sales are not doing very well.

So you do not consider the CLA or BMW 4 cylinders as luxury cars. That is a ton of their growing business. So luxury cars are 6 cylinder and up by your definition?

The facts are
1. Car sales are up
2. Emissions are down
3. MPG is up
4. Power is up
5. Technology is up

And sadly it took a kick in the butt from the government for most to act. Not everyone had the vision to make a Prius like Toyota did. Mind you on the other end of the spectrum they made a V-10 LFA, and make V-8 Tundras etc.

Your article is from May 2010, mine is from May 2014.

The facts show car brands are on the way to meet those higher MPG standards and we still have V-6/V-8s and more sports cars and luxury cars and exotics than ever before.

We have more cars getting 30/40/50 MPG than ever and they are not some 50 hp cars.

What is the issue?

spwolf

well, hybrids can be applied to any type of engine - so petrol, diesel, CNG/LPG, fuel cell, etc. Additionally, hybrid components go into EVs as well. So it is perfect bridge technology.

I dont think environmentalists ruined V6/V8 engines... price of gas ruined them. After that went up significantly, all the European countries started taxing on CO2, supposedly due to emissions but a lot of it was likely due to oil imports most likely as well.

I had no problems driving V6 when gas was $4 per gallon, now it is $8 and it is simply too expensive for V6 or V8 engines... next car was turbo diesel and hopefully next one will be hybrid.

As to LPG/CNG - you are completely correct. But that is also finite resource not renewable. From natural gas, you can power EVs, fuel cells, etc, etc.

Hoovey689

iTrader: (16)

Lexus should have my GS600h plug-in ready any day now..

FrankReynoldsCPA

I had the pleasure of talking to a few environmentalists about my LS400. They would complement me on not buying some gas guzzling domestic SUV. I loved telling them that my LS couldn't do better than 10 mpg on a good day in the city.

Sent from my Nexus 4 using IB AutoGroup

Och

iTrader: (3)

All cars are better than ever. Sure there are some bugs to work out with new turbo and DI tech - but driving experience is a pleasure across the board. We have twin turbo v8s but even 4 banger econocars are no longer miserable. Hell even haiyondies and chryslers are not heaps of junk anymore. Even the new Lada is pretty decent. I dont know wth is there to whine about. I dont care about environmentalists but its time to move forward.

gengar

Don't forget that engines and FI are not the only negative impacts of government over-regulation on cars. The reason for the switch from hydraulic to electric steering in many European brands, like BMW and Porsche, has been widely cited as being due to meet gas mileage targets. So driving enthusiasts haven't just been hurt by less-interesting, less-responsive engines, but worse steering feel as well.

And really, I challenge anyone to drive a 997.2 and then a 991 and talk about the driving experience. I posted here on CL before that I rented a 997.2 C2 for a week and thought it offered the best steering feel I'd ever experienced (yes, better than my LFA). I finally got to spend some time with a 991 and now I am actually thinking about picking up a used 997.2 because that seems like it'll be the pinnacle of what Porsche can achieve. That's how different it is - how much worse it now is - and how bleak the future looks.


C'mon, man. I'm sure you have access to at least the amount of internal Lexus data that I do, and so you know the reality that many Lexus owners - who I would think are a much less cachet-focused group than other luxury brands/marques - surveyed by Lexus believe that anything less than a V8 is not luxury. This was a major factor in why Lexus hesitated for so long to consider the 2.0T (speaking to some Lexus people, they make it sound like this even trumped reliability concerns ) and why there was so much internal debate about not having a V8 in the current GS.

In fact - at the risk of saying too much - the impression I got from speaking to a number of people within Lexus is that a major factor for Lexus' ultimate decisions in these cases was due to finding an agreeable justification in market segmentation, and not other factors. I actually didn't believe this when I first heard it, but some of Lexus' decisions since then support what these people were saying at the time.

The reality is that Lexus has gone with smaller engines to chase sales (even if it comes under the guise of chasing a different demographic) and I think this is something that Lexus can be justifiably criticized for. It's not even that these cars are bad; I think that most people recognize a lot of these cars are great (like the CT, for example) - but all luxury brands have to be cognizant of the impact of going downmarket and what that means for brand image, especially if these models start undergoing next-gen cost-cutting and begin feeling really downmarket.

bitkahuna

iTrader: (20)

thanks.

'popularity' doesn't mean people like them, it means all things considered that's what they're buying. and all things considered factors in car costs, taxes, and most importantly running costs. you conveniently ignore my point that gas is twice as expensive as it was 6 years ago, so without question that influences people's decisions.

and your own quote says 6/8 cyl sales are flat to decline - does that factor in population increases? i doubt it.

all 5 of them.

despite all the 'sky is falling' doom and gloom, climate change propaganda, tax credits, govt loans, etc., your own quoted 'fact' shows people don't want what environmentalists want.

mb and bmw don't have other GIANT divisions to prop up their 'luxury' sales, or make their overall cafe scores lower (porsches gets away with it by being part of vw for example), so they HAVE to come down market and up economy.

bmw had no choice but to do the i3/i8 line and so far, it looks like their offerings and great marketing are yielding dividends. but they're only doing it because they have no choice.

luxury is many factors, but quiet smooth drivetrain is one of them, and while 4 cylinder engines are better than ever, they're still not smooth or quiet when under throttle.

thanks for the facts, not sure your point.

tech advances regardless, and also HAS to advance to achieve higher economy now. power might be up, but performance isn't really up, it's to overcome weight or overcome weird torque response and look good on paper.

i already made my case, you've made yours. thanks.

bitkahuna

iTrader: (20)

haha, thanks for the laugh.

reasonably equipped 550i with that twin turbo v8 is over $70k.

no doubt we can only buy what's available, but that doesn't mean we have to like how 'coerced' the choices have been made.

bitkahuna

iTrader: (20)

great point. and environmentalists aren't the only 'do gooders' to hurt cars... the euro 'pedestrian height' laws have made the front over car 'frumpy and tall'.

about lexus, they have the 'luxury' (ha!) of not having to comply with jack as far as mpg goes because they're part of toyota's overall mix including yaris, corollas, prius, etc.

bagwell

I don't care if the CLA had a V12 in it....still wouldn't be a luxury car

and personally I'm very close to pulling the trigger on a 300hp 4cyl turbocharged car (not lux and I don't want/expect it to be).

Wife and I are more than happy with the 2.0T in her A5....and yes it IS a lux car...just because it has a 4 banger it doesn't disqualify it....the a5 drivetrain is very smooth.

Och

iTrader: (3)

Hey, I don't like raising prices anymore than you do - but prices have been steadily rising on everything. And if you're going to blame the mysterious environmentalists (has anyone even ever seen them?) why not also mention a whole generation of greedy selfish ######s that collectiverly robbed this country for many generations ahead while you're at it?

Lex2InfiN

Great post

I agree with the fact that skyrocketing fuel prices are directly affecting buyers decisions. No one wants to waste so much money filling up a tank that only gets 16-18 mpg. If premium gas was $1.50/gallon, not many would care whether or not their luxury vehicle got 40mpg or 15mpg. The high cost of fuel cannot be overlooked as a major factor in current buying trends.

mmarshall

Yet, Mike, for years, you have been sharply critical of Acura (especially in the RL/RLX) for not doing any V8 and/or RWD models. Now you criticize bitkahuna for pointing out that CAFE rules have made the traditional V8, as we know it, all but extinct at a reasonable price, except in purpose-built high-performance cars, some-high-end luxury cars, and heavier-duty work trucks. And, of course even some of THOSE vehicles are now substituting turbo V6s for the traditional V8.

As to the never-ending (but generally true) argument that V6s and in-line sixes are smoother and quieter then fours under throttle, the real solution, IMO, to that quandary is simply small-displacement V6s, like what we see in the Lexus IS250 and Infiniti Q50 with their 2.5L units. Another credible solution (and I'm sure that both of you will remember it) was the very small 1.8L V6 used as an upmarket option in the early-to-mid-90s Mazda MX-3 coupe. That, IMO, was a very interesting power plant, combining smoothness with a very small displacement better than any other production auto engine outside of Mazda's own rotary. The only fly in the ointment for that small V6 was quite low torque at low RPMs.....you had to wring it out a little to get max performance.

Mazda, however, didn't keep that engine in the American market very long. And, from my memory, they never really gave much of an explanation for dropping it, although my guess is that it was more expensive to build than the typical 4-cylinder power plant of comparable size.

So, once again, we get back to the reason why we don't see small-displacement V6s in less-expensive vehicles instead of fours. My guess is probably cost. But, as I just posted above, I still think that, cost or not, they are probably the best solution to the constant problem of balancing power, displacement, MPG, and smoothness. As much as I like the Verano (more than any car I've owned in years), I'd like it even MORE with a small-displacement V6.