Blackraven

As someone once said before:

4TehNguyen

iTrader: (1)

it works for certain applications (like replacing this 2.5 V6) when you want a small compact power plant but turbos arent more efficient nor as reliable across the board. If it was, every engine out there would be turbo, but they arent. If there was an equivalent turbo engine to the 3.5 NA, I would still stick with the 3.5 NA

Allen K

iTrader: (4)

I test drove the old RDX when it was first introduced and I wasn't particularly impressed with the engine. Turbo lag was quite noticeable, but when it was in the power band, it pulled well for what it was. That engine was really thirsty too

spwolf

specs only tell small part of the story.

3S-GTE was introduced in 1986, way before Germans thought of doing turbo's and it was made until 2007.

At top spec for road cars it made 260hp. Race cars based on 3S-GT made 680hp.

Problem was always fuel consumption and emissions, not amount of hp/torque.

As you say, so far lots of them spent too much fuel when pressed and end up being slower than good V6 engines.

But I think it will be good upgrade to 2.5l V6 for sure - it was not fast engine and it spent fuel too... new one should be both faster and spend less fuel. They crammed a lot of tech inside of this engine to make it fuel efficient including VVTI-iW, which uses electric motor and new version of their D4-ST adopted for turbo tech, and many other things... basically this is the top end tech available in 2015. With VVT-iW, 8AR-FTS might be able to achieve atkinson cycle at partial load, like VVT-iE in new V8 and new 1.3l ZR engine announced 10 days ago.

Toyota also said that the engine will have instant power and no lag... lets see what the tests say.

For me, numbers dont matter at all. With turbo, you can do anything you wish on paper. When driving these small turbo's, they all behave very differently.

What is very positive is the level of brand new technology in there. I previously did not know that 3S-GTE had Toyota's own turbo for instance - these days turbo's are outsourced to outside companies - BMW uses Borg Warner for N55 for instance. I know Toyota diesels use various different manufacturers for turbines. For this new 8AR-FTS engine, they are doing their own turbine again.

So they went all in, this is part of the new 2015 engine push for them where they head of engine technology says that they are "half step ahead of competition". Lets see the real numbers on the road.

spwolf

Lexus had a big problem due to increased emissions and CO2 based taxes, their V6 engines are only sellable in the USA. This lowered their sales greatly as not everyone wants a hybrid.

These days, numbers for 6cly engines in the rest of the world are miniscule. Lexus quit selling their V6's in Europe mostly, and in China and rest of the world they are taxed based on engine size, with anything above 2.0l getting bigger taxes.

When it comes to V6, I believe 2GR-FSE will get big upgrade in 2015, in line with their PR where they are coming out with 14 new engines in 2015 - it will have new D4-S, new VVT-iE and rest of the improvements they already mentioned in their ZR engine release from 10 days ago - they expect 30% MPG increase for that 1.3l engine and likely the same will happen to GR series as well. It will incorporate Atkinson cycle at part load like in new UR V8 (which also ended up having a lot more HP).

spwolf

Yep... lets just remember that Japanese companies have long heritage in both turbo's and direct injection.... Afterall, Toyota was one of the first with GDI (after Mitsu), and way before Germans incorporated the technology (8-9 years).

Also, D4-S is incorporated into this (D4-ST), which is to this date unique to Toyota and reason why 2GR-FSE is such great engine. There were some rumblings that some manufacturers will incorporate this tech, but nothing happened probably due to well done patents.

So if anyone asks if Toyota will have same problems as BMW - there is no reason for that. 2GR-FSE had high pressure fuel pump for years. Denso makes them also for a lot of Toyota diesel engines and they are problem free. BMW's problems are their own.

bitkahuna

iTrader: (20)

spwolf, thanks for some great info and insight.

doge

Sure there is, never driven a high hp car with forced induction?

E60 vs F10 M5

M156 vs M157

the list goes on...

Tesla has no displacement and its faster than cars with a lot of displacement.

That statement held some merit in 1992.

spwolf

When it comes to Engines, Toyota announced 14 new engines in 2015 10 days ago:
http://newsroom.toyota.co.jp/en/detail/1693527/

This paper focused on 1.0 KR and 1.3 AR engine, but we already know that both 8AR-FTS and UR in RC-F are incorporating these technologies.

Toyoda has invested in new engine R&D center back in 2010, and in 2013 Toyota announced Toyota Unit Center , which develops all of their engine technologies and is completely separately managed now to be more efficient. Basically, now Toyota Unit Center is one of the 4 divisions of Toyota (Toyota 1, Toyota 2, Lexus and Unit Center). More info from video below:

4TehNguyen

iTrader: (1)

just to be clear they said new engines in up to 14 different variations not 14 new engines. Like for this NX engine theres going to be a FWD version for NX and then a RWD setup for IS and GS, that is two variations already even though its the same engine. That also includes engines in toyota cars. So its not 14 variants just for Lexus. They might even be counting AWD as a variant. They should just put atkinson cycle in everything and when you go to Eco mode, lock in the atkinson cycle to reduce the effective displacement for economy. I think this is a better approach than cylinder deactivation to maintain smoothness and response

spwolf

i love following these things, so this is exciting time :-)

spwolf

p.s. Lookign for 8AR-FTS, i see that Autonet.tw reported on this engine when nobody knew anything about it:
http://www.autonet.com.tw/cgi-bin/vi...e1+e2+e3+e5+f1

numbers are a bit wrong, but not bad insider info. Congrats to them.

LexFather

I also would prefer a N/A V-6 with 235hp vs a boosted 4 but this is where the market is going. It is what it is.

1. Not sure how the new Highlander V-6 is gutless

Highlander
-3.5 V-6 with 278hp and 248lbs of toque with a 0-60 time of 7.2 seconds getting 18/24 MPG (AWD)

Explorer (I assume 2004 V-8)
-4.6 V-8 with 240hp and 280lbs torque with a 0-60 time of 8.4 seconds getting 14/29 MPG (AWD)

An over 1 second 0-60 difference is a huge huge difference. Maybe the Explorer is "gutless".

2. The market wants all these engines. I don't see Lexus nor the Germans dropping large engines only for turbo 4 cylinders. This is where the luxury market is going. Cars have gotten safer, faster with more MPG. What is not to like?

What Lexus engine has given issues its first two years of production? They over test the engines which is one of the reasons Lexus is late to the party.

This engines is going to do incredible for Lexus in all the vehicles it is put in barring some unforeseen flaw.

bitkahuna

iTrader: (20)

lol, i have a 2006 V8 that has 292 hp and 300 pound-feet of torque.

but as you know it's more about the responsiveness/feel than interweb numbers, and the the excellent toyota v6 just doesn't compare in low end torque to the also excellent ford v8. (aside: both have 6 speed auto)

agreed.

Och

iTrader: (3)

Ford modular V8 is often very underrated. It's a really good engine that serves duty in many vehicles in many variations, and even pre 2006 version with 240hp can surprise you. Police Crown Vics used it for many years, and these old Crown Vics can easily hang with on pavement with cars that are much faster on paper.

That being said, todays you have far more choices and variations with drivetrains. Long term reliability is the only concert with todays vehicles, other than that they are far superior to vehicles of last decade.