corradoMR2

Good point.

In the 90s: Lexus Leader by far echoing most opinions above. NOTHING in the automotive history has there ever been created as close to automotive perfection as the LS 400, for its time.

in the 2000s: Leader in some areas, follower in some, as you all mentioned above.

2013 onward: Leader in design follower in technology . Infiniti edging out over Lexus. MB leading the segment with their S-class (so much new tech).

Since Day 1 to Present: Leader still by far in reliability/quality/dependability.

Mr. Burns

I was impressed by the interior build quality in the 2015 Genesis (not so much the materials) when I checked one out at the autoshow recently, but the Equus was clearly and easily a class below all the premium badged flagships in terms of both interior quality and execution and exterior styling and execution. The interior was nowhere near the LS460 they had on display, which I thought rivaled even the new S550 and bested it in some areas inside, which was very surprising because I certainly did not expect it.

And so I maintain the current LS460 for the money has the highest quality and most comfortable interior on the market.

Regarding performance, I think they have to be careful going forward. Certain cars like the ES, RX, NX, LS, and the other SUVs should not have performance variations. The LS may be the only exception but in LS-F guise. The primary focus of the standard LS should always be luxury.

Performance focus should be relegated to the RC, IS, GS, and other future performance oriented models (i.e. four door GS coupe, LS coupe).

In terms of image, luxury>performance every time for most buyers, and a luxury brand will be seen as more upscale than a sport brand every time. It's partly why BMW has struggled vs. Mercedes at the upper end, and why I think in some ways the L may be even more prestigious than the roundel.

Sal Collaziano

My wife wanted to take a look at the first generation Genesis out of curiosity. My nephew (24 years old) was with us. He looked at an Equus and was more impressed with the interior than my 2012. Now my 2012 doesn't have the new interior that the 2013 LS has - but you're comparing that new interior to the old Equus - which was "pretty darn good", if you know what I mean. Not great - but pretty good.

By looking at the improvement of the 2nd generation Genesis over the 1st - I can only imagine the next Equus is going to be one HELL of a car...

I agree that performance should stick to the RC, IS and GS. The LS can use more power but it doesn't need to be a "sports car" in any way or form. Just more power is all I ask for...

I think the RC-F is going to be pretty cool. From what I hear, the GS-F is going to be pretty weak (maybe a CTS V-Sport competitor). The IS - I don't know what's going on with that car - but I feel Lexus needs, at least, some forced induction going on in there.

Mr. Burns

It was a brand new refreshed Equus on display. The next one may improve on the aesthetics, but I doubt they will get the materials and execution to even current LS460 levels. Not to mention by then there will be a new LS as well, and the potential for that to be amazing is even greater than the Equus. The current refreshed LS upped the interior ante quite a bit compared to the 2012 model and it was just a refresh.

My only experience with the current (not new) Genesis was at a used car lot, and the interior was not impressive at all. It felt more Lincoln than Lexus in execution.

These cars are decent upper level mainstream cars that emulate some of the style and execution of premium brands, but they will clearly feel a class below due to both their lower cost and Hyundai's overall lack of experience. There is no magic recipe here, their benchmarks are moving targets and better at what they do.

Forced induction is a slippery slope. If they can get the quality and power delivery right, then go for it. But reliability is the Lexus trump card, sacrificing that to chase German cars in the name of performance is not a smart move IMO. Actually widespread use of FI in Lexus cars may result in lower quality scores for the first time since brand inception.

Sal Collaziano

The "refreshed" Equus interior seems the same to me as the original. I know people say it was improved but I really don't see it or feel it. The reason I'm saying, "wait till next time" is because Hyundai really didn't have their mojo with the first generation Equus. You really need to sit in the new Genesis to understand where I'm coming from. It's a totally different ballgame inside. And that's what we're going to see with the next Equus - even more so.

Yes, the Lexus LS is going to continue to improve - but not by leaps and bounds. It's just not possible. The 2013 LS is top quality as it sits. The first generation (in America) Equus is far from it - leaving plenty of room to do exactly what the LS cannot - improve by leaps and bounds...

Yes, the first generation Equus and Genesis are decent upper level mainstream cars... I agree with you. The second generation is not.

Most people who buy Lexus cars aren't really interested in performance. I'm completely on the other end of that - so I'll refrain from making any further suggestions in regards to that. Lexus and I have come to those ole crossroads...

Mr. Burns

I have sat in the new Genesis (Vancouver Autoshow 2014). Materials are below the E-class segment norm, and on par with other ~$40k cars (though materials lagged even the ES I found). The interior overall is not on par with premium badged competitors. Not to say it was bad, but just felt a class below its ambitious targets.

Sal Collaziano

They're not "there" yet but at least they're in the same ball park. The first generation played on the same field as the Avalon and 300. The second generation, while maybe at the bottom of the pack, plays on the same field as the 5-Series and cars like it...

TangoRed

I really enjoyed this post bitkahuna. To be honest, I see Lexus as having moments of brilliance but not really a segment leader. One thing is for sure, Lexus does a helluva good job perfecting tech so it's reliable.

Mr. Burns

No way would I put the new Genesis interior in 5 series ballpark in terms of materials and execution. In terms of aesthetics sure, since it borrows a lot from German design, but it uses less rich plastics and detailing - essentially lacking that extra bit that makes a mainstream car into a true premium car.

Sal Collaziano

I just may be the least picky luxury car buyer on Earth! But that's okay with me.

mordecai

Maybe you guys should start a thread about whether Hyundai is a leader or follower...

spwolf

but the pricing is getting there as well... Genesis price went up.

Every single long term review of Equus complained about seats wearing after 6 months of use for instance... you dont get same quality for less money.

I know people want to get same for less, but so far thats not happening and their sales suck.

Once they build a brand around it so they get some premium cache, and once they improve it a bit more, then their price will go up as well.

p.s. 0-60 in new Genesis is 6.8s due to high weight. Engine had to be downrated too. Once they start spending more money on chassis, guess what... price will go up.

Blackraven

For me, Lexus is both a leader and a follower.

Each brand definitely has its pros and cons.

Pros:
-Very solid overall reliability (same goes to cars in the Toyota group in general)
-Resale value
-Ease of finding parts and ease of maintenance

Cons:
-Perhaps........the need for greater individualization and personalization options (i.e. some places don't offer AWD for the GS350...........yet in Russia, the GS350 only comes in AWD )
-Performance variants...........although Lexus is starting to build on it with cars like the LFA, the F sport line and the RC-F. We'll see how this goes.

Anyways, that's all I can say for now....

bitkahuna

iTrader: (20)

you're welcome to start one, but that's not what this thread is about.

bitkahuna

iTrader: (20)

glad.

lexus leads in areas for sure (hybrid tech for example), and yes, lexus has well earned a stellar reputation for reliability. about perfecting... well their voice recognition has always been pretty lame. haven't tried the very latest though...

but like several others have said in this thread, lexus both leads and follows, with each aspect different at different times. i know it's almost impossible for any brand to keep going full blast indefinitely (think apple, for example, which has also has its ups and downs), but i want lexus to blow me away with the next LS and RX! i was last blown away by the LF-A.