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Old 05-16-14, 11:22 AM   #46
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Originally Posted by Allen K View Post
So GM is blamed for 13 deaths and gets fined $35M

Toyota is blamed for 5 deaths and has to settle for $1.2B.

.......and BOTH companies probably had millions (if not billions) of safe driver-miles for the few accidents and deaths that DID occur. That's not to deny the existince, of course, of grieving families who lost loved ones (and I symphatize with them). But one must look at the overall perspective, too.
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Old 05-16-14, 11:37 AM   #47
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Please correct me if I'm wrong. But supposedly Toyota only knew about the pedal issue for like a 1 and half. GM on the other hand have known about the ignition issue since 2001.
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Old 05-16-14, 02:13 PM   #48
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Originally Posted by Vh_Supra26 View Post
Please correct me if I'm wrong. But supposedly Toyota only knew about the pedal issue for like a 1 and half. GM on the other hand have known about the ignition issue since 2001.
We don't really know, right now, exactly how long GM actually knew.....or, if applicable, who and when someone covered anything up. Mary Barra just fired the investigator-in-charge.
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Old 05-16-14, 02:19 PM   #49
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So GM is blamed for 13 deaths and gets fined $35M

Toyota is blamed for 5 deaths and has to settle for $1.2B.

Seems legit
I just read a report saying this disaster has pretty much destroyed all momentum for the "new GM". So they are going to pay with sales. Toyota clearly rebounded quick.

No idea who there is such a disparity, maybe someone can explain the fines.
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Old 05-16-14, 02:25 PM   #50
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I read somewhere that it had to do with Toyota 'hiding the scandal' but if this has been going on with GM since 2001 (supposedly) then how is that not hiding the scandal?
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Old 05-16-14, 02:33 PM   #51
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Originally Posted by LexFather
No idea who there is such a disparity, maybe someone can explain the fines.
I agree that the reason is unclear. But the most likely reason I can think of is that, Toyota, for decades, has been pictured as the epitome of automotive success. If and when they screwed up, that could have meant that, in the eyes of regulators, they were more deserving of a fine. (I myself don't necessarily think that way, but many people outside of the car-enthusiast-world do). GM, in contrast, until about the last 7-8 years, had such a long history of building sub-standard vehicles that few were really surprised at the ignition switches, even if that was more characteristic of the "old" GM than it is now. I'm disturbed, however, by Marry Barra firing those in charge of the internal investigation....especially since she and her immediate CEO predecessor were both impressive and had seemed like a breath of fresh air. She had better come up with a darn good explanation for it, or else it's going to startling looking like a cover-up.
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Old 05-16-14, 02:55 PM   #52
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We don't really know, right now, exactly how long GM actually knew.....or, if applicable, who and when someone covered anything up. Mary Barra just fired the investigator-in-charge.
According to CNN, they knew since 2001.

Quote:
2001 Saturn Ion glitch

During pre-production testing, GM engineers experience problems with ignition switches on the Ion.

At issue: A mechanism that is supposed to hold the ignition key in place. According to GM, an internal report indicates the problem was solved when the switch was redesigned.
http://www.houston-imports.com/forum...=687552&page=6
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Old 05-16-14, 03:13 PM   #53
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Originally Posted by Vh_Supra26 View Post
According to CNN, they knew since 2001.

http://www.houston-imports.com/forum...=687552&page=6
Perhaps. But that article refers to the Saturn Ion. Back then, the plastic-bodied Saturns used a number of different parts than other comparable GM products of the same size. That was before Saturns became essentially rebadged Opels and other GM products.....although the Ion did start integration of the generic GM Ecotec engines to the Saturn line.
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Old 05-16-14, 04:05 PM   #54
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Default NHTSA itself confused about the way airbags work

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There might actually be a bit of a silver lining to General Motors' ignition switch recall of 2.6 million cars. In the end, it may mean safer vehicles on the road from every automaker. The debacle has shined a light on how little the National Highway Traffic Safety Administration actually understands about airbags and their deployment. The regulator is now working to change that, and it's investigating how to make the devices even safer.

In its Congressional testimony, NHTSA said that it believed the General Motors recalled vehicles had 60 seconds of power for the airbags after their ignition switches were turned off, according to The Detroit News. The automaker has denied this its own research has found that the bags will only work for about 150 milliseconds after the ignition has been moved from the run position.

This discrepancy between GM and NHTSA investigations may lead to major improvements in how airbags work. The regulator has begun surveying automakers and airbag suppliers to learn more about how ignition position affects activation, according to the report.

At the moment, these airbag activation parameters remain unregulated. While the pyrotechnic devices legally have to be in cars, automakers tune their deployment differently, depending on their own internal standards. NHTSA's analysis could eventually lead to new regulations determining whether these safety devices should continue to work for a period of time after a vehicle is shut off.
http://www.autoblog.com/2014/05/16/n...-airbags-work/
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Old 05-16-14, 04:07 PM   #55
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Default GM agrees to $35M fine over ignition switch recall delay

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GM Signs Consent Order with National Highway Traffic Safety Administration

DETROIT General Motors Co. (NYSE: GM) has come to an agreement with the National Highway Traffic Safety Administration (NHTSA) for failing to report in a timely manner the ignition switch defect. As part of this agreement, GM will pay a $35 million fine.

"We have learned a great deal from this recall. We will now focus on the goal of becoming an industry leader in safety," said GM CEO Mary Barra. "We will emerge from this situation a stronger company."

Working with NHTSA, GM has already begun reviewing processes and policies to avoid future recalls of this nature.

"We are working hard to improve our ability to identify and respond to safety issues," said Jeff Boyer, vice president of Global Vehicle Safety, who is assigned to integrate safety policies across the company. "Among other efforts, GM has created a new group, the Global Product Integrity unit, to innovate our safety oversight; we are encouraging and empowering our employees to raise their hands to address safety concerns through our Speak Up for Safety initiative, and we have set new requirements for our engineers to attain Black Belt certification through Design for Six Sigma."

Having signed this agreement, GM now has its sights set on effectively serving customers and completing the ignition switch recall.

"GM's ultimate goal is to create an exemplary process and produce the safest cars for our customers they deserve no less," said Barra.

About General Motors Co.
General Motors Co. (NYSE:GM, TSX: GMM) and its partners produce vehicles in 30 countries, and the company has leadership positions in the world's largest and fastest-growing automotive markets. GM, its subsidiaries and joint venture entities sell vehicles under the Chevrolet, Cadillac, Baojun, Buick, GMC, Holden, Jiefang, Opel, Vauxhall and Wuling brands. More information on the company and its subsidiaries, including OnStar, a global leader in vehicle safety, security and information services, can be found at http://www.gm.com.

General Motors agrees to pay maximum $35 million penalty for violating federal safety laws in Chevrolet Cobalt investigation

WASHINGTON The U.S. Department of Transportation's National Highway Traffic Safety Administration (NHTSA) today announced that General Motors (GM) has agreed to pay a record $35 million civil penalty and to take part in unprecedented oversight requirements as a result of findings from NHTSA's timeliness investigation regarding the Chevrolet Cobalt and the automaker's failure to report a safety defect in the vehicle to the federal government in a timely manner. The defect resulted in the non-deployment of airbags in certain Chevrolet Cobalt and other GM models. This action represents the single highest civil penalty amount ever paid as a result of a NHTSA investigation of violations stemming from a recall.

As part of today's agreement, set forth in a Consent Order signed with NHTSA, the agency also ordered GM to make significant and wide-ranging internal changes to its review of safety-related issues in the United States, and to improve its ability to take into account the possible consequences of potential safety-related defects. GM will also pay additional civil penalties for failing to respond on time to the agency's document demands during NHTSA's investigation.

"Safety is our top priority, and today's announcement puts all manufacturers on notice that they will be held accountable if they fail to quickly report and address safety-related defects," said U.S. Transportation Secretary Foxx. "While we will continue to aggressively monitor GM's efforts in this case, we also urge Congress to support our GROW AMERICA Act, which would increase the penalties we could levy in cases like this from $35 million to $300 million, sending an even stronger message that delays will not be tolerated."

Federal law requires all auto manufacturers to notify NHTSA within five business days of determining that a safety-related defect exists or that a vehicle is not in compliance with federal motor vehicle safety standards and to promptly conduct a recall. GM admits in the Consent Order that it did not do so.

Today's action is historic in that the provisions of the Consent Order will be immediately enforceable in federal court if GM does not fully comply. The Consent Order will hold GM accountable, push the automaker to make needed institutional change, and ensure that replacement parts are produced quickly and recalled vehicles are repaired promptly.

"No excuse, process, or organizational structure will be allowed to stand in the way of any company meeting their obligation to quickly find and fix safety issues in a vehicle," said NHTSA Acting Administrator David Friedman. "It's critical to the safety of the driving public that manufacturers promptly report and remedy safety-related defects that have the potential to lead to deaths or injuries on our nation's highways."

In the Consent Order, GM agreed to provide NHTSA with full access to the results of GM's internal investigation into this recall, to take steps to ensure its employees report safety-related concerns to management, and to speed up the process for GM to decide whether to recall vehicles.

The Consent Order also requires GM to notify NHTSA of changes to its schedule for completing production of repair parts by October 4. GM must also take steps to maximize the number of vehicle owners who bring in their vehicles for repair, including targeted outreach to non-English speakers, maintaining up-to-date information on its website, and engaging with vehicle owners through the media. The Consent Order requires GM to submit reports and meet with NHTSA so that the agency may monitor the progress of GM's recall and other actions required by the consent order.

Both in 2007 and again in 2010, NHTSA reviewed data related to the non-deployment of airbags in certain Chevy Cobalt models but each time, determined that it lacked the data necessary to open a formal investigation. However, on February 7, 2014, GM announced it would recall certain model vehicles for a defect where the vehicle's ignition switch may unintentionally move out of the "run" position that could result in the air bag not deploying in the event of a crash. GM had failed to advise NHTSA of this defect at the time of the agency's earlier reviews.

After review and consultation by NHTSA, GM twice expanded the recall to include a total of 2,190,934 vehicles in the United States. The GM recall covers the 2005-2010 Chevrolet Cobalt, 2007-2010 Pontiac G5, 2003-2007 Saturn Ion, 2006-2011 Chevrolet HHR, 2006-2010 Pontiac Solstice and 2007-2010 Saturn Sky vehicles.

Over the past ten years, NHTSA defect investigations resulted in 1,299 recalls involving more than 95 million vehicles and items of motor vehicle equipment, which has helped the agency to reduce vehicle fatalities to historic, all-time lows. Including today's consent order, the agency has obtained record fines of $124.5 million in the last five years from automakers who have failed to promptly report defects to NHTSA.
http://www.autoblog.com/2014/05/16/g...million-nhtsa/
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Old 05-16-14, 05:46 PM   #56
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I also love how Eric Holder called Toyota's actions shameful, but than says nothing about GM...
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Old 05-16-14, 08:04 PM   #57
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You know what is ironic about this whole mess?

GM, in 1969, INVENTED the original side-column ignition switch that locked the steering column and transmission lever. I remember it well on the cars I was in high school with that year. GM came out with the design simply as a selling point......it was not government-mandated in any way, and (to my memory) not something that Ralph Nader, the country's great auto-safety-crusader, was pushing for, either. In fact, it was originally meant as an anti-theft, not safety device. The Federal government (then the Nixon Administration) was so impressed with the concept that they made it mandatory on all new American-market cars the very next year, (1970)....so Ford, AMC, Chrysler, and the imports sold here at that time followed suit with their own versions of the switch.
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Old 05-16-14, 08:20 PM   #58
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Originally Posted by mmarshall View Post
I agree that the reason is unclear. But the most likely reason I can think of is that, Toyota, for decades, has been pictured as the epitome of automotive success. If and when they screwed up, that could have meant that, in the eyes of regulators, they were more deserving of a fine. (I myself don't necessarily think that way, but many people outside of the car-enthusiast-world do). GM, in contrast, until about the last 7-8 years, had such a long history of building sub-standard vehicles that few were really surprised at the ignition switches, even if that was more characteristic of the "old" GM than it is now. I'm disturbed, however, by Marry Barra firing those in charge of the internal investigation....especially since she and her immediate CEO predecessor were both impressive and had seemed like a breath of fresh air. She had better come up with a darn good explanation for it, or else it's going to startling looking like a cover-up.
Toyota has the reputation of hiding faults and fixing them without calling them out with recalls. That is what I hear.
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Old 05-17-14, 12:31 PM   #59
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I will take a shot on the difference in treatment.....The Toyota amount was part of a settlement with the Justice Dept of a criminal probe, while the GM fine is by the Dept of Transportation for delays in recalling the vehicles and is a calculated amount.

Allegedly there is also a Justice Dept criminal probe of GM surrounding the issue. What will be interesting to see is if there will be any charges or settlements result from the probe?
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Old 05-17-14, 04:39 PM   #60
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I just read a report saying this disaster has pretty much destroyed all momentum for the "new GM". So they are going to pay with sales. Toyota clearly rebounded quick.

No idea who there is such a disparity, maybe someone can explain the fines.
Toyota rebounded from the pedal issue because they started doing all these voluntary recalls right after the pedal problem.

I can forgive Toyota for the pedal issue but I won't be forgiving GM on this one.
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