SW17LS

Doesn't surprise me at all that you think that LOL.

Thats the whole point. Cadillac has reinvented their image...they don't want their cars to look "like Cadillacs" anymore.

I personally prefer the current logo, I like the wreath and crest. I do also actually really like stand up hood ornaments, but the car has to look right with them. The current Cadillacs wouldn't look right with a stand up hood ornament. Mercedes does still use them, but you'll find they do on fewer and fewer models. Base E and C, and with the refresh of both you'll see fewer models have them. Really the only model that still does consistently is the S Class. It works for the S Class.

TangoRed

That's the type of backwards thinking that prevents companies from making progress. Image takes a LONG time to modify so getting the "V" models the respect they deserve is going to certainly be a journey. Sure, in the short term, getting rid of the DTS will hurt the bottom line. Long term, Cadillac needed to evolve and I think they're making all the right moves. Now that the CTS is aligned properly with its competitors this will be a great first step at getting the V-line the reputation it needs to be a consistent seller.

SW17LS

Well said. Its also the kind of backwards thinking that held Cadillac back for so long. The best example is indeed Lincoln. They are modifying their image now, and the new image is pretty good but they waited far too long to make that change and the damage to their brand is pretty extreme. The DTS and the Town Car are the past, their only appeal was to ancient buyers who are frankly shrinking in numbers (trying to be diplomatic) and fleet sales as executive cars and limos. Thats a business both GM and Lincoln decided they did not want to pursue any longer.

mmarshalll says most buyers don't go shopping for the wreath and crest...more do than did, and it will continue to improve. I work in a circle where EVERYONE drives luxury cars, its certainly not scientific, but I see the growing respect for Cadillac from people in their 30s and 40s, 50s. I know personally people in those age brackets that have gone to Cadillac from other brands that would never have considered a Cadillac before. I personally feel the change in my perception and desire to look at and own a Cadillac, and I'm in my 30s. I looked at Cadillac for the first time when I bought my GS this past time. Its something that happens over time, not just in one or even 5 or 10 years. GM can afford lower sales at Cadillac until that shift happens...just as Toyota can afford the same at Lexus.

In business sometimes you have to make sacrifices in the short term to build a stronger better business in the long term. I have GREAT respect for Cadillac for making this move, I have made similar moves in my business and its hard...takes faith. Lexus is in the middle of a similar evolution.

mmarshall

LOL. If you think that the XTS is "progress", just go look at one and drive it. Granted, the interior materials and 6-speed transmission are a step up from the DTS, but the chassis, IMO, is a joke. It rides and handles like an econobox. The CUE system is complex and confusing. I wasn't impressed with the seat-comfort up front, or the overall level of sound-insulation, either. For the money, the CTS is probably a better buy. And Consumer Reports, to a large extent, agrees with me.

SW17LS

The XTS is but one car, and really its a "stopgap" car that is still trying to play towards the traditional Cadillac buyer without eschewing the brand's growth towards a sportier more modern appeal. I also found the car overall very disappointing. The XTS is not an example of Cadillac's progress, its an example of the "backwards thinking" we're talking about if its anything.

The CTS and ATS are the examples.

mmarshall

Though my views may not be particularly popular on this particular chat-forum, I can assure you that I am FAR from alone. You can bet the monthly rent on that....and you wouldn't lose.

Well, considering that most Cadillacs, today, share a common theme with the angular/chiseled look with quad-stacked or dual headlights, they DO look like Caddys in that sense. And, lie you, I don't see anything wrong with leaving the hood ornaments off the sport-oriented Cadillacs (especially the V-models). But I also don't see anything wrong with leaving a little bit of tradition, either, on the other models.

TangoRed

Exactly SW13GS. MMarshall, it's very telling you chose the XTS instead of the ATS or CTS to discuss.

SW17LS

But this particular forum is filled with consumers of a brand that Cadillac is trying to target. You have to understand that just because they can pay their bills and sell cars today building the types of things you want...those customers are not customers Cadillac wants for the future.

I'm not sure how else to make you understand this. I can tell you a story in my own business. I'm in the real estate business, and a few years ago I came to the realization that while I was successful and met my goals, etc...I was working far harder than I wanted to. When I looked at my business I learned that the average pricing of clients I was working with was pretty low compared to the average sales price in my marketplace. So while I was doing the overall business I wanted to do...I was having to do a lot of units to get there.

So...I was left with a quandary. If I spent my time working with the clients I had been working with, I would not have time to target higher value clients. If I stopped working with those clients, I would have all the time in the world...but I would be closing the door on a reliable income stream. I made the decision to refer that business out to other people so that I could concentrate on securing higher value business in the hopes of doing the same amount of volume I had been doing...but in fewer units. Now, in the short term that hurt a lot...its hard to give up on business you could have today in the hopes of appealing to a different consumer in the long run..and there were some lean times. BUT, I can tell you that today my volume is better than ever, and I'm doing it in much fewer units...which means I'm working less. Looking back, its probably the most pivotal decision I've made professionally.

In essence...Cadillac is referring these consumers to Buick and to other carmakers...and is outfitting itself to go after a different consumer. This may hurt them in the short run...but over time their hope is that it will position them for greater success with the target consumer they are after.

I think its very telling that NO carmaker is 100% catering to these "lost Cadillac DTS/Lincoln Towncar consumers"...even Buick...the reality is that market is a dying market with no future.

There are definitely traditional styling themes in Cadillac's new image. Look at the tail-fin like design of the parallel tail lamps. Look at the egg-crate type grills. Look inside with the metal "V" embellishments on the seats and elsewhere. Look at the cursive "Cadillac" script.

Its just that stand up hood ornaments are woefully out of fashion. Its like tassels on shoes...you can make nice nods to the past without trying to force a design element that is just outdated. Perhaps one day it will come back into style, but for today building a car with a hood ornament (except for companies like Mercedes where its iconic) is like trying to sell triple pleated pants. Hell...try buying a suit with single pleated pants today...its hard trust me!

mmarshall

The ATS (and some versions of the CTS) were intended to be sporty....I think we all agree on that. The XTS, though, was supposed to be a luxury-oriented flagship...and Cadillac, IMO, blew that car royally. Cadillac is not alone, BTW.....Lincoln made the same mistake with their flagship MKS, and it has cost them dearly in sales.

I've noticed, in my area, that many former DTS owners are simply holding on to their cars instead of trading them in for a XTS. Some of those owners have actually told me that face-to-face....they went and looked at the XTS, and came to the same conclusion about the car I did. In fact, when I reviewed the XTS, the salesman (a real nice guy) told me the dealership was having trouble selling it.

We may have gotten a little off-topic, though (me included). The thread is supposed to be about the Cadillac logo, not necessarily the company's model-line marketing.

mmarshall

What's good for the goose is also good for the gander. They are also iconic on Caddys....although I agree with you that they should probably not be on the V-models.

SW17LS

I don't agree that the XTS was meant to be a luxury-oriented flagship at all. I think they intend the car to be sporty while still being large...look at the new V Sport model. I think they still failed, because the car is neither...but that car is as much about trying to hold onto the past as it is anything...trying to keep a foot in the door when it comes to fleet sales....limo sales...trying to make sure the next Presidential limo is a Cadillac.

You can't compare Cadillac and Lincoln. Lincoln is just hosed...they've abandoned the traditional consumer without creating anything for the target consumer. Cadillac has real success with the CTS, SRX and ATS...

Again...Cadillac doesn't care. They no longer want that consumer. Thats what you have to understand.

It all goes hand in hand.

They are not iconic on Caddy's because they haven't been on a wide variety of Caddys in a long time. Look at Mercedes history, the three pointed star has ALWAYS been there...always been the same. Its not that way at Caddy. Over the last 10-15 years the only Caddy that has had a stand up hood ornament has been the base Deville, DTS. The BASE MODEL...any upgrade moved the hood ornament to the grille. Remember...thats an "iconic Caddy" Cadillac is trying to make consumers forget. Why would they put it on their new cars? Even the logo is not "iconic" at Cadillac the way it is at Mercedes. Look how often its been changed. Mercedes logo has been unchanged for 100 years.

And remember...at Mercedes you see fewer and fewer cars with the three pointed star ornament. They are just out of style.

mmarshall

I DO understand that....very well. I'm just saying that, in a few years, history is probably going to show that policy was a mistake, just like it did for Lincoln.

Anyhow, I've had all I'm going to say about it. You guys can shrug it off now, and consider me an old fogey with his head in the sand, but we'll see in a few years who was right.

I'm outta this thread. So long. Have a nice day.

SW17LS

There is just no reason to believe that is going to be the case. The previous CTS sold well, this CTS is going to sell well, the CTS is car of the year, the ATS has gotten a ton of good press, they are selling well. This direction is not new...its been playing out at Cadillac for getting close to 10 years. Sales are up! The situation at Lincoln cannot be compared. Lincoln has nothing to offer any consumer, no traditional luxe barge and no sport tuned refined modern luxury sedans.

You act as if Cadillac was on fire before they shifted direction. You must understand that they shifted direction because Cadillac was FAILING. They've done what they've done to save Cadillac.

Time changes...generations pass from this life to the next. To stay relevant companies have to evolve and change. Just as tail fins were the past...hood ornaments and 15" wheels are the past now. The difference is when tail fins faded into oblivion you were in the position I am in now.

TangoRed

Nope, the XTS was nothing but a stopgap car so Cadillac didn't completely exit the "large, relaxed luxury car" segment altogether. They've been clear about releasing a true rear-drive flagship vehicle to take on the S-class for quite some time- this falls in line with all of their other moves to square up their line up against competitors.

I don't doubt that. Cadillac doesn't give a crap. That generation will disappear sooner rather than later (sorry for being crass) and Caddy needed to move on. I hope they buy a soft Hyundai Equus to satisfy them.

If there's one thing people in general hate, it's change. But in cases like this, it's for the better.

SW17LS

And this is really the long and short of it. Yes the 70+ year old DTS owner might be miffed that he can't trade his DTS in on a new Cadillac because they don't make anything that appeals to him...but at some point that consumer is going to be gone...and there is not a younger generation of consumers coming in behind him that wants that type of car. So...if Cadillac continued to focus on that person as a consumer...where will they be in 10 years? They'll be Lincoln.

And you can't do it halfway, you can't really market to both because the younger consumer who wants that ATS or CTS doesn't want to be associated with the 70 year old in the DTS because it makes them feel old. Thats why people laugh at people who buy Cadillacs...because they've "surrendered to their age".

When my Dad got his STS back in 1995 you should have heard the ribbing he got, he was early 50s. Now, the STS was a pretty good car at that time, fast, his was black and sporty looking. But his friends just gave him endless ***** for buying a Cadillac. One of the big reasons he never got another one. When he got his LS in 98 the ribbing stopped...and that was a car that wasn't exactly "youthful", and actually much more conservative than the STS.

Even today, I mentioned to my wife I liked a new Cadillac. Her response was "You are NOT buying a Cadillac". Because...to her a Cadillac is for old people. Caddy desperately wants that image gone.