SW17LS

To me the test is to ask yourself "If I were to give you a choice between these two cars for free, which would you choose, a $70k 535 or a $70k CTS?" I think you would find the vast majority who answer objectively would choose the 535. Same is true comparing it to the GS. The only car that I think you'd see a split on is the E Class, and I think you see that in the pricing (both very similar) and sales (both similar).

If someone would always choose an E or 5 if the playing field were level...how does Cadillac think they can sell this car for the same money? The CTS should be loaded $60k. I know its getting good press, but the GS hasn't really caught on (they sell near their goals, but their goals are pretty conservative) despite the incredible press it got in the auto mags.

gengar

The current plan is that the 2.0L turbo will debut with the NX. No doubt it will spread into other Toyota platforms.

I8ABMR

I would love to see a TTV6. Bring back the power. They could drop it in everything from sedans to SUVs

Hoovey689

iTrader: (16)

I agree, I was merely pointing if Cadillac continues this trend of highly competitive vehicles eventually some equilibrium has to be met between BMW, MBZ, Audi, Cadillac and Lexus - pick your flavor so to speak as the only big difference if feature content, amenities, performance were all the same would be brand power. Cadillac was once a revered nameplate and the "Standard of the World". No reason they can't renew that image, but It will be tough as the competition is also producing their finest vehicles to date.

jwong77

If they stay consistent to their current course, they should be able to achieve parity with he German brands. The key is, will they be able to do it over the next 5-10 years?

oldcajun

I stopped by the local Cadillac dealer today on my way home. They were closed, so no test drives. What shocked me were the prices. There was a 3.6 ATS that stickered at $46,000+ and a CTS (non Vsport) at $61,000. The top end was a V Sport XTS with a sticker of $71,000. These are factory stickers with no dealer add-ons. Would I pay LS460 prices for an XTS? Not even with 410hp! Resale values have got to make these losers in the value equation vs Lexus, BMW, and MB.
Steve

Infra

iTrader: (1)

No one is actually going to be paying those prices... GM is using anchoring to set the position from which bargaining begins... and from all the discussion about the price, it seems to be working!

But you say, "I'd never pay $70k for that!" OK, what about $67k? $65k? $60k? At some point the anchor makes it seem like a good deal despite how much you're actually paying. Did you notice how at each price I listed, you did not objectively consider if the car was worth THAT price, but compared how much difference there was between $70k and the proposed new price? This is because the human brain is lazy, and calculating a simple difference is much easier than really thinking about whether a number is a good value or not. And then your brain tricks you into thinking you've done the latter, and not the former.

The earlier question "If these were free, which would I choose?" is a good way to defeat this anchoring bias, but when the cars are not the same price, it makes this comparison much different.

Be sure to always start negotiation from the price YOU think the car is worth, NEVER the price the dealer thinks the car is worth. Refuse to start until they take that number away, because despite how much you argue against it, you'll always be arguing from that anchor, and you'll always end up paying more. And no, you are no immune to the effect. No one is immune.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Anchoring

SW17LS

Its precisely that mentality that has hurt American automakers for decades, it hurts resale values because they are calculated from MSRP. Thats not the right approach for a marque like Cadillac. The right approach would be to set a realistic price, and stick to it as much as their competitors do. You are right that buyers are lazy, but buyers in this segment and at this level are a little less so. Anyways, when someone like me walks in and sees the sticker, I'm out the door before the negotiation phase ever even begins. We have the money, we can spend $70k its just a question of getting the best car for that $70k. The CTS is not it IMHO, not overall. I think the best car at a $70k price is a 535i M Sport. The GS is a better value, the A6 is a better value...but the CTS is not nor is it as much car.

Where they are at now assuming the worst case of your anchoring argument, I don't see me paying $60,000 for a $70,000 MSRP CTS. Because my $59,000 MSRP GS is buyable at $54k. Because a $70,000 BMW 535 M Sport is buyable at $63k.

IMHO these cars are just grossly overpriced. I guess time will tell. $72,000 for a FWD 400HP XTS? Thats nuts.

SteVTEC

It's more for tax related reasons, as in various parts of the world you almost can't sell cars with anything over a 2.0L displacement as people will reject them due to getting slaughtered on taxes. Sadly this is also part of the reason why BMW phased out their magnificent naturally aspirated 3.0L engines in favor of 2.0L turbos. Physics wise, keeping a vibration prone Inline-4 engine to a displacement of 2.0L or less does tend to mitigate the NVH issues. I've driven the 2.0L class turbo engines from BMW, Mercedes, and Audi, and they're all wonderful. The only thing I don't like about them is their sound, which can't compete with 6 or 8-cylinder engines IMHO.

SW17LS

I thought the 2.0T in the CTS sounded great...

TangoRed

Interesting. I drove an ATS with the 2.0t and it sounded exactly as bad as I expected. What bothers me most is the vibration at idle, although that was mostly an issue with the 528i's and A4's I've driven.

SW17LS

The ATS I drove had the 3.6. Perhaps they have made some improvements for the CTS. I thought it idled smoothly, accelerated smoothly and sounded way better than I expected.

LexBob2

C&D had an article not too long ago that discussed why 2.0L turbos are the sweet spot for NVH, performance and fuel efficiency. When car shopping recently I sampled the 2.0t in BMW and Audi and agree, they are great engines. No doubt we'll keep seeing more and more of them.

I8ABMR

my brother in law has had multiple 328s when he worked for BMW and I am blown away by the power of the turbo 4 cylinder. Also how smooth it was.

Hoovey689

iTrader: (16)

The power quoted is closer to actual rwhp than flywheel