Future of Lexus discussion 2013-2015
08-01-14, 11:31 AM
#316
Guest
Posts: n/a
Actually if you check the LX and Landcruiser hardly share anything inside and out today as the two brands have separated further apart. The first two generations were very closely alike, the first gen clearly a rebadge.. The GX does share most of the Prado body but the interior is different.
08-01-14, 01:39 PM
#317
bmw and mb don't have another bigger 'mainstream' brand like audi and lexus (vw and toyota respectively), and in the global car game, volume is really important unless you want to go uber-niche like aston martin or ferrari or something, with commensurate necessary huge price tags and margins.
so bmw and mb need to do stripped 1 series, a/b class, etc. lexus does not.
in the u.s. it's a REAL problem for bmw/mb as they will need higher volumes of high fuel economy models sold to reach CAFE standards, or pay huge fines. lexus/audi do not have this problem as far as i know.
agreed. my point being, leasing lets a lot of people get into these brands without much concern for what the selling price of the vehicle is, and the car makers are happy to do it, knowing they'll have good vehicles for CPO sales later. without leasing, luxury car brands would have major challenges selling in any significant volumes.
i think the buyer profiles have been different although they may be getting closer. for example, i bet a lot of RX customers buy the vehicle. they're looking for a highly reliable 'sensible' but stylish and classy looking vehicle that they intend to keep for a good while. on the other hand i bet the MAJORITY of x3/x5/ml/glk vehicles are leased.
on the high end, like s-class / LS, i bet most are leased regardless, and a lot of the buyers are getting the vehicles to 'look' rich rather than actually being rich.
of course there are still a lot of rich buyers/leasers too.
so bmw and mb need to do stripped 1 series, a/b class, etc. lexus does not.
in the u.s. it's a REAL problem for bmw/mb as they will need higher volumes of high fuel economy models sold to reach CAFE standards, or pay huge fines. lexus/audi do not have this problem as far as i know.
agreed. my point being, leasing lets a lot of people get into these brands without much concern for what the selling price of the vehicle is, and the car makers are happy to do it, knowing they'll have good vehicles for CPO sales later. without leasing, luxury car brands would have major challenges selling in any significant volumes.
i think the buyer profiles have been different although they may be getting closer. for example, i bet a lot of RX customers buy the vehicle. they're looking for a highly reliable 'sensible' but stylish and classy looking vehicle that they intend to keep for a good while. on the other hand i bet the MAJORITY of x3/x5/ml/glk vehicles are leased.
on the high end, like s-class / LS, i bet most are leased regardless, and a lot of the buyers are getting the vehicles to 'look' rich rather than actually being rich.
of course there are still a lot of rich buyers/leasers too.
08-01-14, 02:05 PM
#319
Lexus Fanatic
iTrader: (20)
they're both a bit 'long in the tooth' at this point though, especially in terms of weight fuel efficiency.
08-01-14, 02:07 PM
#320
Lexus Fanatic
iTrader: (20)
i don't think bmw/mb are interested in selling corolla type cars in the u.s. to get their CAFE lower. of course bmw with its mini brand might have some real growth potential there, but the numbers are still currently minuscule.
08-01-14, 04:57 PM
#321
That said, if they wanted a more pedestrian sub-brand rather than making a new one, they should buy a current struggling one
08-01-14, 08:06 PM
#322
Lexus Champion
bmw and mb don't have another bigger 'mainstream' brand like audi and lexus (vw and toyota respectively), and in the global car game, volume is really important unless you want to go uber-niche like aston martin or ferrari or something, with commensurate necessary huge price tags and margins.
so bmw and mb need to do stripped 1 series, a/b class, etc. lexus does not.
so bmw and mb need to do stripped 1 series, a/b class, etc. lexus does not.
08-01-14, 08:35 PM
#323
Pole Position
I see Templin's point, as I see the points of Paul, Henry and others on this subject. A few random points:
1) Being hatchback-only and hybrid-only, I consider the CT quite different than the CLA or A3, which are FWD sedans with 4 cylinder gas engines - pretty much the most mainstream configuration in this country. I don't think Lexus made a ploy for volume with the $33k CT or they would have gone with a different formula. The CT also really isn't going to distract someone from buying a $37k IS or NX, either - it's too different. A3 and CLA are packaged and priced for the mainstream, and I'm sure they're also taking a bite out of A4 and C Class sales in the process.
2) Think about the business case here: Toyota has no incentive to take Lexus downmarket. IS is still a growing product - only in the last generation did we get different engine options, we don't have a high performance version (For Gen 3), there's a hybrid but it's not sold here and no wagon. Corolla (which would make sense to base a CLA-fighting Lexus on) is the best selling nameplate in the world, and both the Camry and Avalon can easily reach into the $30-38k market, along with IS and ES. I just don't think Toyota wants or needs another sedan in that price range. Mercedes and BMW have made this move because they don't have parent companies with product in this space - they want that chunk of the market. Audi has followed suit regardless of VW, I think because Merc and BMW have done it.
3) To the point about Lexus needing more high end product, I agree and it is coming. Their CUV/SUV strategy has really never been very solid: LX came first, years later we got RX, then BOF GX. The core of this market has been three-row CUVs and Lexus doesn't even have one of those yet. X5s, GLs and MDXs run $45 - $80k and they sell a ton of them. Lexus has nothing in that space, as they've relied on the RX for that market, GX is niche and LX is too expensive. As for sedans, GS is still expanding with new products and has a forthcoming entry level engine, expanded offerings for the 450h and an F model. I imagine that the next LS will have more engine options as well. We have RC coming online and shortly after that, SC/LF-LC.
As for this article specifically, quite frankly, I think Mark Templin is right. Why sacrifice the brand image just to pull people into the lineup? I have been in CLA and the interior is maybe a few steps over a Corolla, with nice Mercedes detailing. I think that the dashboard of the A3 is pretty horrible looking, and the rest of the interior feels like a $25-30k pricepoint. It is what it is. They're cheap, FWD four cylinder cars aimed at people who quite frankly don't know better and are happy with that type of vehicle. It's a strategy that is clearly driving profit, but Toyota is already the largest and most profitable automaker without pimping Lexus to get there. I just don't think we're going to see them change that anytime soon, either.
1) Being hatchback-only and hybrid-only, I consider the CT quite different than the CLA or A3, which are FWD sedans with 4 cylinder gas engines - pretty much the most mainstream configuration in this country. I don't think Lexus made a ploy for volume with the $33k CT or they would have gone with a different formula. The CT also really isn't going to distract someone from buying a $37k IS or NX, either - it's too different. A3 and CLA are packaged and priced for the mainstream, and I'm sure they're also taking a bite out of A4 and C Class sales in the process.
2) Think about the business case here: Toyota has no incentive to take Lexus downmarket. IS is still a growing product - only in the last generation did we get different engine options, we don't have a high performance version (For Gen 3), there's a hybrid but it's not sold here and no wagon. Corolla (which would make sense to base a CLA-fighting Lexus on) is the best selling nameplate in the world, and both the Camry and Avalon can easily reach into the $30-38k market, along with IS and ES. I just don't think Toyota wants or needs another sedan in that price range. Mercedes and BMW have made this move because they don't have parent companies with product in this space - they want that chunk of the market. Audi has followed suit regardless of VW, I think because Merc and BMW have done it.
3) To the point about Lexus needing more high end product, I agree and it is coming. Their CUV/SUV strategy has really never been very solid: LX came first, years later we got RX, then BOF GX. The core of this market has been three-row CUVs and Lexus doesn't even have one of those yet. X5s, GLs and MDXs run $45 - $80k and they sell a ton of them. Lexus has nothing in that space, as they've relied on the RX for that market, GX is niche and LX is too expensive. As for sedans, GS is still expanding with new products and has a forthcoming entry level engine, expanded offerings for the 450h and an F model. I imagine that the next LS will have more engine options as well. We have RC coming online and shortly after that, SC/LF-LC.
As for this article specifically, quite frankly, I think Mark Templin is right. Why sacrifice the brand image just to pull people into the lineup? I have been in CLA and the interior is maybe a few steps over a Corolla, with nice Mercedes detailing. I think that the dashboard of the A3 is pretty horrible looking, and the rest of the interior feels like a $25-30k pricepoint. It is what it is. They're cheap, FWD four cylinder cars aimed at people who quite frankly don't know better and are happy with that type of vehicle. It's a strategy that is clearly driving profit, but Toyota is already the largest and most profitable automaker without pimping Lexus to get there. I just don't think we're going to see them change that anytime soon, either.
08-02-14, 10:28 AM
#325
Lexus Fanatic
BMW, of course, handles their Mini line in the U.S., which has been (and deserves to be) more successful than the Smart.
08-02-14, 01:15 PM
#326
Lead Lap
To the fortwo's defense (and the only thing I will say for it) it was obvious that it wasn't created with the U.S. primarily in mind, hence its success elsewhere. Mercedes has always known it wasn't going to sell in huge numbers here, as the whole concept of it is made for extremely tight urban areas. The upcoming next-gen model will be more of the same, minus the clunky transmission.
08-02-14, 05:20 PM
#328
Lexus Fanatic
Mercedes, IMO (Daimler-Chrysler), was an even bigger one. The only good Chrysler ever got out of that one was a decent RWD platform, from the Mercedes E-Class, for the Charger/300/Challenger. Other than that, Mercedes pretty much ignored Chrysler's needs.....and it showed.
08-02-14, 05:32 PM
#329
Lexus Test Driver
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One of my friend just got a white 2014 IS350 F-sports
We went for a long drive and I was very impressed by it
One thing I really liked were the paddle shifters, they actually let you select the gear you want to be in.
The paddle shifters on my IS350 are pretty much just for show lol
We went for a long drive and I was very impressed by it
One thing I really liked were the paddle shifters, they actually let you select the gear you want to be in.
The paddle shifters on my IS350 are pretty much just for show lol
08-02-14, 05:42 PM
#330
Lexus Champion
Mercedes did try creating another brand by bringing back the old Maybach name from the 1930s. It was a interesting attempt to compete with Rolls-Royce and Bentley, but was ultimately unsuccessful, mostly from super-high prices and low volume/demand. Whether M-B would be interested in creating another somewhat lower-cost brand remains to be seen. But if they do, it's got to be better than their Smart-for-Two, which, IMO, is simply unsuited for 99% of American driving conditions.
BMW, of course, handles their Mini line in the U.S., which has been (and deserves to be) more successful than the Smart.
BMW, of course, handles their Mini line in the U.S., which has been (and deserves to be) more successful than the Smart.
The problem with the modern Maybach is that Mercedes-Benz tried to build up from its S-Class rather than the other direction. It is much easier to build down from a more premium vehicle to a less premium vehicle; MB tried to build up.
I have seen this in such mundane examples as the Camry and Corolla. I have owned both Camry LE and Corolla LE models. The trim level is the same and the price difference between the camry LE (the bottom of the lineup in Canada) and the Corolla LE (the top of the lineup in Canada) is not that much.
It was obvious to me that the Camry LE was built down from a more premium model -- most obviously the XLE but it is not a stretch to think that it was, in fact, built down from the Avalon or ES. Toyota built the Camry LE by taking away bits and pieces of "luxury" (some interior trim, fog lights, etc.) from the XLE, but the underlying car was built for the XLE and Avalon, so it is good.
The Corolla LE, however, was obviously built up from a barebones economy model. Toyota built the Corolla LE by trying to add bits and pieces of *luxury* (Optitron gauges, wood trim, fog lights, etc.), but the underlying car was built for a barebones Corolla CE (in Canada). Toyota did not even bother to put in rear disk brakes for the Corolla LE.
MB's mistake is that the Maybach was too obviously built up from an S-Class (it even looked like its cheaper cousin) by trying to add bits and pieces of "ultra-luxury". If, however, MB had done what Rolls-Royce did with the Rolls-Royce Ghost (design it and then build down from it for the 7-Series), and designed a Maybach and then introduced its platform-mate S-Class as a build-down, I believe that it would have been more successful.
