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Old 03-12-13, 12:57 AM   #106
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an e350 STARTS at $52k, which is a car you can't actually buy (stripped). no idea where you get the idea hyundai would 'have' to be under 40k to compete. that's pretty laughable.

now the ES starts at $36k, again for a car you likely can't buy. certainly cheaper than a new Genesis is likely to be, but i don't think it will compete either. Genesis is rwd and will most likely be more luxurious.
It will need to be priced in Chrysler 300 territory. Hyundai's badge is nowhere near good enough to move decent volume at anything higher. The current Genesis is a perfect example. It's cheaper than the FWD ES, TL etc... but it gets outsold by them both. It's larger and offers far better value than compact RWD cars like the IS, A4, C-class, CTS, and 3 series but is outsold by all of those cars as well. The next Genesis will clearly be a nicer car than the current one, but if accompanied by a significantly higher price, will consumers bite? I don't think merit is what's holding back the current model's sales, which should be double what they are.


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do you consider s. korea a third world country?
South Korea is an exception not the rule. Hyundai is South Korean and given that market's dynamics, Hyundai/KIAs are everywhere there. This is to be expected.


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this is exactly the same argument that wasn't true when an upstart division with big "L" logos ate into 3 pointed star and roundel sales.
The big "L" hasn't made much of a dent in this segment, and it was still from Toyota, which was much more respected and recognized by the American public than Hyundai has ever been. Not to mention it had a luxury badge and promises of superior reliability, refinement, and customer service. Hyundai has none of these. The only thing they both share is the "upstart" classification, but many others did as well and failed where Lexus succeeded.

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Click the image to open in full size.
As for that design itself, I think it's a good looking car, but in a very bland, generic, and predictable kind of way. I think it lacks any identity or personality, and this could be further made clear if Hyundai chooses to leave the grill badge-less and instead place a winged badge on the hood as the spyshots suggest.

I think if you saw the above car on the road you would struggle to identify what it is, and in that sense the car doesn't really say much about the driver. Hyundai needs a very easily identifiable corporate design language for these cars and I don't think they've got it. This along with the KIA K9 are styled like the type of cars you expect to see in an insurance commercial.
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Old 03-12-13, 07:44 AM   #107
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The current Genesis is a perfect example. It's cheaper than the FWD ES, TL etc... but it gets outsold by them both.
those models have been out for a decade or more longer, so not surprising the first gen genesis doesn't outsell them.

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It's larger and offers far better value than compact RWD cars like the IS, A4, C-class, CTS, and 3 series but is outsold by all of those cars as well.
that's not surprising at all either, because the larger, softer genesis sedan doesn't compete with those cars, and again, is 'new' on the market comparatively.

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I don't think merit is what's holding back the current model's sales, which should be double what they are.
i don't agree. again, it's a first gen product... it will take a long time to get established.

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I think if you saw the above car on the road you would struggle to identify what it is, and in that sense the car doesn't really say much about the driver.
lol, we only know certain models well because we see them so often.

the current lexus gs for example, has a completely forgettable rear.

Click the image to open in full size.

i think something like an A6 is far more distinctive:

Click the image to open in full size.
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Old 03-12-13, 09:57 AM   #108
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Let us all get this right. The A6 has a more distinctive rear than the GS, a car most of us confuse with any Audi the last 100 years.

Another thread, another "lets beat up the GS".

This is rich. Thought we were talking about the Genesis?
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Old 03-12-13, 09:57 AM   #109
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Well for the 2013, everytime I see this, I have to pause to make sure

(sorry for the ginormous picture)
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Click the image to open in full size.
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Old 03-12-13, 11:33 AM   #110
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those models have been out for a decade or more longer, so not surprising the first gen genesis doesn't outsell them.

that's not surprising at all either, because the larger, softer genesis sedan doesn't compete with those cars, and again, is 'new' on the market comparatively.

i don't agree. again, it's a first gen product... it will take a long time to get established.
Right, so you think they are at the position now despite the poor sales of the cheaper current Genesis to offer a new one at a much higher price and have higher sales? I don't think so. Suddenly they've gone from a $33k fullsize RWD sedan that can't outsell the ugly and old FWD TL to a car that you suggest should be priced higher than $40k and think will perform better sales wise.

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lol, we only know certain models well because we see them so often.

the current lexus gs for example, has a completely forgettable rear.

Click the image to open in full size.

i think something like an A6 is far more distinctive:

Click the image to open in full size.

The models we see from established brands have established design and body languages, Lexus included. You know when a car is from Lexus, and every Lexus design fits in with the rest of Lexus.

Click the image to open in full size.

The sheetmetal is designed in unique Lexus fashion, despite the graphics being somewhat derivative. This is what's called a "design/body language" (L-finesse in Lexus' case) and is applied to every car in a brand's lineup, even if very clearly those cars have different graphics (headlight/grill shape, greenhouse shape, taillights etc...). The design/body language of Lexus is very different from that of BMW, Mercedes, and Audi, all of which have their own ways of carving lines and form onto their cars' bodies, with different degrees of hardness, softness, combinations of hardness/softness, amount of sculpting (i.e fender flares), gauges or etches vs. not etc...

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Old 03-12-13, 06:41 PM   #111
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Right, so you think they are at the position now despite the poor sales of the cheaper current Genesis to offer a new one at a much higher price and have higher sales? I don't think so. Suddenly they've gone from a $33k fullsize RWD sedan that can't outsell the ugly and old FWD TL to a car that you suggest should be priced higher than $40k and think will perform better sales wise.
Well every next gen model they introduced in the last 3 years has seen a substantial increase in sales all at a price point thousands more than their predecessors. That includes the Accent, Azera, Elantra, Sonata. Also their SUVs. If they make a more appealing, better, higher quality car then shouldn't they be able to charge more?
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Old 03-12-13, 07:23 PM   #112
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Let us all get this right. The A6 has a more distinctive rear than the GS, a car most of us confuse with any Audi the last 100 years.
sorry you can't distinguish an A6 with any Audi from the last 100 years. i think it's pretty easy. saw a new A6 just the other day and the rear tail lights are dramatic.

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Another thread, another "lets beat up the GS".
not at all. when Mr Burns said "I think if you saw the above car on the road you would struggle to identify what it is, and in that sense the car doesn't really say much about the driver" i was simply countering that the 4GS rear isn't very distinctive. the 4GS is certainly distinctive in other ways, like the front.

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Thought we were talking about the Genesis?
right! the carscoop drawing is probably just a guess so we'll have to wait and see. but so far it appears the new genesis will be more stylish/aggressive than the current one.
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Old 03-12-13, 08:03 PM   #113
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sorry you can't distinguish an A6 with any Audi from the last 100 years. i think it's pretty easy. saw a new A6 just the other day and the rear tail lights are dramatic.
Everyone has their own opinions, but if you look at the audi a6 rear and 2013 honda accord rear when they are both lit, they are EXTREMELY similar. Especially if it is dark outside. That one line rear taillight isn't very special to me, but hey if it floats your boat, more power to ya!

As for the above carscoops rendering of the 2015 Genesis, when it is in black, it looks like the front of a 2012 Nissan Maxima, coupled with faint traces of a 2012 Chrysler 300 grille.
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Old 03-12-13, 08:34 PM   #114
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Well every next gen model they introduced in the last 3 years has seen a substantial increase in sales all at a price point thousands more than their predecessors. That includes the Accent, Azera, Elantra, Sonata. Also their SUVs. If they make a more appealing, better, higher quality car then shouldn't they be able to charge more?
Yes but there is an ultimate price ceiling. Every brand has it. A brand can't just charge whatever it feels the car is worth simply because at some point the intangibles that the brand lacks start to factor heavily into the price. Hyundai is a value mainstream brand, and without a dedicated luxury brand they will hit their price ceiling very quickly.

Besides, I'm not saying the next Genesis shouldn't and wouldn't see a price increase, but I'm challenging the assertion that Hyundai can charge more than $40k for a base model and see any meaningful volume, especially if the car they're selling lacks any novel, unique, and desirable traits from an engineering stand point.


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sorry you can't distinguish an A6 with any Audi from the last 100 years. i think it's pretty easy. saw a new A6 just the other day and the rear tail lights are dramatic.
I think the A6 is only dramatic from a lighting standpoint. See one in the day time and it's quite bland. But I digress.

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not at all. when Mr Burns said "I think if you saw the above car on the road you would struggle to identify what it is, and in that sense the car doesn't really say much about the driver" i was simply countering that the 4GS rear isn't very distinctive. the 4GS is certainly distinctive in other ways, like the front.
I think you misunderstood what I said. In person and on the road the 4GS is clearly a Lexus, it fits in with Lexus design language that many are familiar with, even if graphically the rear isn't unique. Same goes for BMWs, Audis, and Mercs. However the design language of the Genesis in the rendering does not have a clear family or brand that it can be associated with, aside from the brands it derives from (I see lots of A7). But those are multiple brands and it's still not an exact association. Coupled with the generic winged badge and potentially badge-less grill, it gives an identity-less vibe.

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Old 03-12-13, 08:37 PM   #115
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I hate comparisons. I don't mind calling something similar, but seriously, a car or body style... well there's only so many ways you can reinvent the wheel.
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Old 03-12-13, 08:53 PM   #116
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I hate comparisons. I don't mind calling something similar, but seriously, a car or body style... well there's only so many ways you can reinvent the wheel.
I think the really difficult thing is to create a brand and an image that's desirable, and then design cars that people associate with that brand and image. In the premium segments this is what gets success.
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Old 03-12-13, 09:07 PM   #117
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I think the really difficult thing is to create a brand and an image that's desirable, and then design cars that people associate with that brand and image. In the premium segments this is what gets success.
Correct. But when you get cool things in the industry like LED lights or exhaust outlets in the bumper, automakers take note of trends that consumers like, be it LEDs or swoopy styling. I wouldn't call it copying, just consumer appeasement. Of course the double standard is consumers then start whining and complaining that its a "copy". I truly hate the masses..
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Old 03-12-13, 09:12 PM   #118
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Correct. But when you get cool things in the industry like LED lights or exhaust outlets in the bumper, automakers take note of trends that consumers like, be it LEDs or swoopy styling. I wouldn't call it copying, just consumer appeasement. Of course the double standard is consumers then start whining and complaining that its a "copy". I truly hate the masses..
I think copying is a way to minimize risk by auto manufacturers. A car design that is already successful in the market is going to be emulated since that's a much lower risk than coming up with an all new design and seeing how the market reacts.

This is especially important for Hyundai, which is already taking a big enough risk offering these expensive to engineer cars with no assurance of solid volume. It's not wise in such a case to come up with unique designs that may potentially alienate buyers.
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Old 03-12-13, 10:09 PM   #119
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Let us all get this right. The A6 has a more distinctive rear than the GS, a car most of us confuse with any Audi the last 100 years.

Another thread, another "lets beat up the GS".

This is rich. Thought we were talking about the Genesis?
Agree with this.

Bitkahuna might have a point but he chose the worst possible example to illustrate it.

Not when Audi is the premium car maker most guilty of the "same sausage different lengths" syndrome.
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Old 03-12-13, 11:03 PM   #120
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I think the A6 is only dramatic from a lighting standpoint. See one in the day time and it's quite bland. But I digress.
i did see it in the day time. some prior a6 were more bland to me, but i think the latest is pretty hot.

Click the image to open in full size.

but like you said, i digress!

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I think you misunderstood what I said. In person and on the road the 4GS is clearly a Lexus, it fits in with Lexus design language that many are familiar with, even if graphically the rear isn't unique. Same goes for BMWs, Audis, and Mercs. However the design language of the Genesis in the rendering does not have a clear family or brand that it can be associated with, aside from the brands it derives from (I see lots of A7). But those are multiple brands and it's still not an exact association. Coupled with the generic winged badge and potentially badge-less grill, it gives an identity-less vibe.
i agree hyundai doesn't have a clear design style, and i don't think it's likely to, as the range of vehicles is huge. they could perhaps get a better one across genesis and equus and that may come in time.

lexus didn't really have a lot of consistency until last couple of years with not, the big spindle grill in particular. 10 years ago it was all over the map with ls, gs, es, sc, etc. and of course lx, rx, gx had pretty much nothing in common on the exterior but that's all changed now so i get your point and agree with it!
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