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Old 03-10-13, 01:01 PM   #91
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Your name is Lexus lover but you only post in Hyundai threads. Then you leave out the GS as a car Hyundai is targeting, even though it is by far the most successful Asian RWD luxury sport sedan.

Then you say they are chasing driving dynamics and fail to mention the GS which is the sportiest car in class. So it's clear they are aiming for dull if you say the GS isn't targeted.
Fine A6, 5-Series, E-Class ans GS. Can I not like Hyundai AND Lexus? I may not post much about Lexus on here but I speak highly of them on Motortrend.
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Old 03-11-13, 04:12 AM   #92
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hyundai isn't about to stop at some bogus 'tier 2'. the equus wasn't just a one off, either. i expect the next gen equus to give so-called 'tier 1' real heartburn.
Tier 1 luxury is all about the "status quo". Tier 1 must have the "name". We're talking Bentley, Rolls Royce, Aston Martin, etc. Hyundai will never fly in tier 1 company, and tier 1 "names" will never have to worry about it.
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Old 03-11-13, 10:28 AM   #93
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the first gen genesis sedan was impressive for a first go, for sure, but obviously lacking in interior style, as well as handling, to compare with the best of germany and japan (or the u.s. like a cadillac cts). the 'R' version was nice, with a honkin' engine, but didn't have the handling credentials to go with it. but at least they're doing it and are learning. and the genesis coupe is of course, about the best bargain coupe out there, but it's not luxurious, which makes it curious that is was named genesis.
I am not too sure about hyundai giving the luxury makers any troubles in the near future. As far as i know, in the US market, luxury brands still need brand names. Volkswagen's Phaeton failed for a reason. The VW emblem does not create any cache. The japanese may not have the cache the germans do, but things are slowly changing. The reason they did well is because they spun off BRANDS. Hyundai will be increasingly wasting time if they are trying to compete in the true luxury battlegrounds. The Equus isn't doing hot. I am not saying there for sure will/will not be a second gen, but as it stands, success isn't within close reach. The genesis is fine, but i think that is as far as Hyundai's competitiveness goes. In which case the genesis isn't a bad idea because it gives people luxury without a flashy badge. The genesis can be the sport version of Toyota Avalon and Hyundai Azera.

Summary: my predictions state that hyundai will not effectively sell luxury without spinning off a brand. Re-badging might be looked down upon in the enthusiast world, but for business, it is the best way for profit. Lexus ES is the ULTIMATE cash cow for Toyota. Sure the RX sells more, but the ES's history of being a rebadge makes it the greenest car Lexus has ever made. Good business.
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Tier 1 luxury is all about the "status quo". Tier 1 must have the "name". We're talking Bentley, Rolls Royce, Aston Martin, etc. Hyundai will never fly in tier 1 company, and tier 1 "names" will never have to worry about it
I think Tier 1 is Lexus/MB/BMW. The names you mentioned, are probably Tier Snob. In that category cache goes even further. Nobody was amazed when someone said they drove a Maybach. Mercedes smartly pulled the plug. Kudos. I doubt Hyundai will be making a 375k car anytime soon. But if they do, it will be like a Lexus LFA project, to create brand momentum. But that I doubt even moreso. I don't see the probability of someone walking up to the Hyundai salesman who just sold his 12th Elantra to enquire about the Hyundai Supercar.
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Old 03-11-13, 10:56 AM   #94
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I am not too sure about hyundai giving the luxury makers any troubles in the near future. As far as i know, in the US market, luxury brands still need brand names. Volkswagen's Phaeton failed for a reason. The VW emblem does not create any cache. The japanese may not have the cache the germans do, but things are slowly changing. The reason they did well is because they spun off BRANDS. Hyundai will be increasingly wasting time if they are trying to compete in the true luxury battlegrounds. The Equus isn't doing hot. I am not saying there for sure will/will not be a second gen, but as it stands, success isn't within close reach. The genesis is fine, but i think that is as far as Hyundai's competitiveness goes. In which case the genesis isn't a bad idea because it gives people luxury without a flashy badge. The genesis can be the sport version of Toyota Avalon and Hyundai Azera.
The Equus is actually hitting its [modest] sales targets. I do agree that they're going to have a spin off a new brand in order to make the luxury thing work and I'm sure that's not lost on management. I'm assuming the Equus and Genesis are experiments- I don't think Hyundai wants to spill massive amount of dollars into a spinoff luxury brand until Hyundai itself becomes a trusted brand and they know exactly how to make top notch luxury cars.
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Old 03-11-13, 11:00 AM   #95
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This next gen will be targeting the A6, 5-Series and E-Class.
What would be the price? Hyundai would have to position this car at <$40k, which is ~$10k less than any of its competition, and this won't be stripper vs. stripper. The Hyundai would be pretty loaded while the competition would be base.

The question then becomes, how can Hyundai build a $50k car and sell it for $40k loaded. And make money. Especially given the low volume that can be expected of a $40k Hyundai, no matter how well it cribs the styling of the Audi A7. And don't tell me they will be pulling off an LS400 with this car, as that's a grand claim to make.

Upper end Hyundai cars are great for 3rd world countries where high taxes heavily inflate the price of German/Japanese luxury imports. Hyundai's lower price there becomes a huge advantage and they end up as status symbols in those markets. But in the US market where any Dave and Joe can lease a base E-class and drive around with a dinner plate sized 3 pointed star on the grill, it's far more difficult.
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Old 03-11-13, 11:12 AM   #96
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The Equus is actually hitting its [modest] sales targets. I do agree that they're going to have a spin off a new brand in order to make the luxury thing work and I'm sure that's not lost on management. I'm assuming the Equus and Genesis are experiments- I don't think Hyundai wants to spill massive amount of dollars into a spinoff luxury brand until Hyundai itself becomes a trusted brand and they know exactly how to make top notch luxury cars.
I don't know the sales target of the Equus, but unless it is higher than 10k units annually, it won't be too much of a problem. Let's say Hyundai set a target of 500 sales, and it hits it. The other brands won't care because it is a drop in the bucket. On the other hand, if the number is high, a substantial profit would be taken from the original players.

As far as a new brand, i dont see the high success perspective as of yet. Lexus pulled it off with HUGE success due to the low number of brands in the US at the time. Look how many brands are being sold now. The timing just isn't there for Hyundai, which is unfortunate, since a new brand is needed for success.

If I was a Hyundai executive, I would advise against getting a bit too big for my britches and focus on improving the Genesis to outrival it's competitors, not try to creep into established luxury territory.

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Old 03-11-13, 11:13 AM   #97
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This next gen will be targeting the A6, 5-Series and E-Class.
Perhaps targeting those as a benchmark, but reality will pit the Genesis as it now is against the 300C, Lacrosse and other large upscale sedans, and to a lesser extent the RLX, MKS
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Old 03-11-13, 12:20 PM   #98
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Well I think it was smart to not have a spin-off brand. There are plenty of spin-off brands that struggle, having a different badge does not ensure success. Hyundai has elevated themselves with the Genesis and Equus and you can argue they are more prestigious than say a Honda or Ford here.

The Genesis never came close to meeting its 50k (combined) sales goal yet he internetz is not posting that up constantly. The Equus had a very modest 3k a year goal they have met. To put it in perspective it outsold the flagship Acura RL.

The cars will improve and they have a niche. All the bull**** about it being like Lexus in 1989 and they have effected other sales is just that bull.
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Old 03-11-13, 04:55 PM   #99
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Well I think it was smart to not have a spin-off brand. There are plenty of spin-off brands that struggle, having a different badge does not ensure success. Hyundai has elevated themselves with the Genesis and Equus and you can argue they are more prestigious than say a Honda or Ford here.

The Genesis never came close to meeting its 50k (combined) sales goal yet he internetz is not posting that up constantly. The Equus had a very modest 3k a year goal they have met. To put it in perspective it outsold the flagship Acura RL.

The cars will improve and they have a niche. All the bull**** about it being like Lexus in 1989 and they have effected other sales is just that bull.
I agree it was a good idea not to make a luxury division or whatever they have planned with the Equus. Truth is the current one couldn't match any of the current Tier 1 automakers. Not in terms of numbers which Hyundai has shown on paper they can go toe to toe, but rather image. At the end of the day a Hyundai is a Hyundai no matter how you look at it. Lacks image, pedigree etc. Though I will say everyone starts somewhere.

Since the inception of the Genesis and Equus, I've found Hyundai has become an upscale brand leaving Kia to be the mainstream. The perfect example is Chrysler and Dodge. Kia is to Dodge as Hyundai is to Chrysler. Some examples of how I break it down: Mainstream (Ford, Chevy, Honda), Upscale (Hyundai, Chrysler), Premium (Volvo, Buick, Acura, Lincoln), Tier 1 (BMW, MBZ, Lexus).
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Old 03-11-13, 05:51 PM   #100
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What would be the price? Hyundai would have to position this car at <$40k, which is ~$10k less than any of its competition, and this won't be stripper vs. stripper. The Hyundai would be pretty loaded while the competition would be base.
an e350 STARTS at $52k, which is a car you can't actually buy (stripped). no idea where you get the idea hyundai would 'have' to be under 40k to compete. that's pretty laughable.

now the ES starts at $36k, again for a car you likely can't buy. certainly cheaper than a new Genesis is likely to be, but i don't think it will compete either. Genesis is rwd and will most likely be more luxurious.

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Upper end Hyundai cars are great for 3rd world countries where high taxes heavily inflate the price of German/Japanese luxury imports.
do you consider s. korea a third world country?

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Hyundai's lower price there becomes a huge advantage and they end up as status symbols in those markets. But in the US market where any Dave and Joe can lease a base E-class and drive around with a dinner plate sized 3 pointed star on the grill, it's far more difficult.
this is exactly the same argument that wasn't true when an upstart division with big "L" logos ate into 3 pointed star and roundel sales.

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Well I think it was smart to not have a spin-off brand.
agreed, especially in the economy at the time (and still). and unlike lexus which pretty much hinged success on U.S. success, hyundai sells their equus and genesis at home in decent numbers i'm sure.

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All the bull**** about it being like Lexus in 1989 and they have effected other sales is just that bull.
i don't recall seeing ANYONE ANYWHERE saying hyundai's genesis/equus introduction/sales were anything like lexus in 1989.
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Old 03-11-13, 06:47 PM   #101
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I agree it was a good idea not to make a luxury division or whatever they have planned with the Equus. Truth is the current one couldn't match any of the current Tier 1 automakers. Not in terms of numbers which Hyundai has shown on paper they can go toe to toe, but rather image. At the end of the day a Hyundai is a Hyundai no matter how you look at it. Lacks image, pedigree etc. Though I will say everyone starts somewhere.

Since the inception of the Genesis and Equus, I've found Hyundai has become an upscale brand leaving Kia to be the mainstream. The perfect example is Chrysler and Dodge. Kia is to Dodge as Hyundai is to Chrysler. Some examples of how I break it down: Mainstream (Ford, Chevy, Honda), Upscale (Hyundai, Chrysler), Premium (Volvo, Buick, Acura, Lincoln), Tier 1 (BMW, MBZ, Lexus).
Agreed, I think their strategy works and we just have to ignore shills that know nothing about cars.




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i don't recall seeing ANYONE ANYWHERE saying hyundai's genesis/equus introduction/sales were anything like lexus in 1989.
it was said over and over in multiple threads here. You missed or or probably agreed.
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Old 03-11-13, 08:01 PM   #102
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hyundai isn't about to stop at some bogus 'tier 2'. the equus wasn't just a one off, either. i expect the next gen equus to give so-called 'tier 1' real heartburn.
Just like every new Hyundai model lately that according to Hyundai fans supposedly was giving major headaches to the competition? I guess that explains their stagnant sales and decreasing US market share.

I expect nothing of the sort. I expect Hyundai ... to continue to be Hyundai. To continue to be known as a great imitator, and to be known as a "value brand" for people who can't afford or don't want to pay for established brands.

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regardless of whether they get better or fail, it's exciting for consumers to have so many amazing choices.
Exciting? That's not quite the word I'd use. Contrary to popular layman's belief, there is such a thing as having TOO MUCH choice. There is fascinating information out there which proves too much choice is a very BAD thing to have. Too much choice is just as bad as too little choice.

There is plenty of choice already in the car market, and things are getting too saturated now with all these near-useless niche models coming out that nobody asked for.
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Old 03-11-13, 09:10 PM   #103
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it was said over and over in multiple threads here. You missed or or probably agreed.
i don't recall seeing it on here, and certainly don't agree with the idea. the ls400 was a meteor hitting the luxury car market and a huge success. the es250 was irrelevant, but the first es300 was an awesome car for its time. the genesis was surprising, nice, but nothing really special. the equus is a nice wannabe, and certainly an amazing value for those not needing a specific brand to show off with, but i certainly never thought it would make much of an impact.
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Old 03-11-13, 09:13 PM   #104
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There is plenty of choice already in the car market, and things are getting too saturated now with all these near-useless niche models coming out that nobody asked for.
'too saturated'? funny we haven't even begun to see the impact of china and india's coming along and of course 'bought' their way in somewhat with tata buying jag and land rover... http://www.tatamotors.com/
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Old 03-11-13, 10:19 PM   #105
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'too saturated'? funny we haven't even begun to see the impact of china and india's coming along and of course 'bought' their way in somewhat with tata buying jag and land rover... http://www.tatamotors.com/
The more choices are available the more people default to established brands.
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