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Old 09-05-13, 01:05 AM   #61
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No one ever said the GS and the ES can't co-exist. What I said, however, was that the existence of the ES limits the potential of the GS, both in sales and in model variants. It also limits the potential of Lexus's brand image when Lexus's bestseller continues to be a car that's based on platform not designed for premium cars. It's really quite obvious. I try not to bring this up every month but since you start the implicit name calling I feel the need to respond again.
Wrong, people here on ClubLexus HAVE said exactly that. No, I won't go digging up the posts, because sadly it's been said far too often here.

You can keep saying that it limits the Lexus brand image until your face turns blue, but that won't change the facts and reality, which your opinion does not match. BMW, Benz, and Audi market high-end models that people aspire to, yet they make most of their volume on really low-end, basic models that are lower class than any Lexus models. They also offer crazy lease rates (in North America) to drive much of the volume on their models here, which Lexus does not do.

High end models have never been about high volume, and NEVER will be. The GS is a mid-end model, not the highest end, but getting on the higher end. So the moderately good sales it's achieving is totally fine for the model.

Lexus brand image has never been better, and it will only become further elevated once the LF-LC production version, coming F models, and next-gen LS arrive.
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Old 09-05-13, 01:22 AM   #62
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Wrong, people here on ClubLexus HAVE said exactly that. No, I won't go digging up the posts, because sadly it's been said far too often here.

You can keep saying that it limits the Lexus brand image until your face turns blue, but that won't change the facts and reality, which your opinion does not match. BMW, Benz, and Audi market high-end models that people aspire to, yet they make most of their volume on really low-end, basic models that are lower class than any Lexus models. They also offer crazy lease rates (in North America) to drive much of the volume on their models here, which Lexus does not do.

High end models have never been about high volume, and NEVER will be. The GS is a mid-end model, not the highest end, but getting on the higher end. So the moderately good sales it's achieving is totally fine for the model.

Lexus brand image has never been better, and it will only become further elevated once the LF-LC production version, coming F models, and next-gen LS arrive.
Oh really? BMW and Mercedes's bestsellers (low-end, basic models according to you) are the 3, 5, C and E, all of which are actually properly engineered premium cars like the IS and the GS but unlike the ES. When people see a Lexus on the road most of the time it's either an RX or an ES, both of which are based on an admittedly mainstream platform. That's what most people see, and that's the kind of image Lexus projects for them--a "value" luxury brand. If Lexus is content with that image, fine. Being a value luxury brand is what kickstarted Lexus after all. But if they want to start being able to push high-end models in any meaningful quantities, this is the kind of image they'll need to start getting away with.

Last edited by ydooby; 09-05-13 at 03:44 AM..
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Old 09-05-13, 05:28 AM   #63
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WOWZAS at the Lexus sales. What a month!
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Old 09-05-13, 07:09 AM   #64
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Originally Posted by ydooby View Post
Great month for Lexus and the new IS. Wish they'd report the number of hybrids sold though. Really want to make a case for the IS300h.Thanks for the summary. The S-Class sold just 450 not 716 though.
Thanks for pointing it out!

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THANK YOU!!! Had a long day, Ill try to finish what I started
Thanks to you! Great job collecting all the other numbers! Make sure S class sales are just 450 instead of 716!

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Originally Posted by ydooby View Post
Calm down and stop calling other people who have different opinions than yours haters.

No one ever said the GS and the ES can't co-exist. What I said, however, was that the existence of the ES limits the potential of the GS, both in sales and in model variants (i.e. the GS will never achieve anywhere near the sales volume of the E and the 5, and therefore can never make a business case for nearly as many model variants as the E and the 5, as long as the ES exists). It also limits the growth potential of Lexus's brand image when Lexus's bestseller continues to be a car that's based on a platform not designed for premium cars. Again, look at the JDM sales and see why the GS is the volume leader of Lexus there (hint: there's no ES in Japan). It really can't be any more obvious.

I try not to bring this up every month but since you start the implicit name calling I feel the need to respond again.
The GS is doing incredibly well in Japan, so well that it's the best selling model ever, way ahead of the CT, IS and with a price tag well above them. Now, studying the success of the GS in could be a great case file... The GS for instance if also sold in Europe without the ES and it doesn't even come close to the IS, CT. We could talk about engines (some markets are hybrid only with a really high price tag) or any other reason?

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Oh really? BMW and Mercedes's bestsellers (low-end, basic models according to you) are the 3, 5, C and E, all of which are actually properly engineered premium cars like the IS and the GS but unlike the ES. When people see a Lexus on the road most of the time it's either an RX or an ES, both of which are based on an admittedly mainstream platform. That's what most people see, and that's the kind of image Lexus projects for them--a "value" luxury brand. If Lexus is content with that image, fine. Being a value luxury brand is what kickstarted Lexus after all. But if they want to start being able to push high-end models in any meaningful quantities, this is the kind of image they'll need to start getting away with.
I don't actually think that killing the ES is the way to go. I would instead rise ES status by designing an unique premium platform like the IS, GS and change its perception. I've been reading the ES forum and people who own an IS and a GS don't find the ES to be "that bad." The ES has a heritage, a history which is very well respected and it's one of the cash makers for Lexus, alongside the RX.

But I honestly think that Lexus market strategy is to divide the entry luxury sedan segment into two markets, the one aimed for performance and driving dynamics (IS) and the other one for comfort and smooth ride (ES).
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Old 09-05-13, 07:29 AM   #65
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Question This article seems a bit ... jaded?


To the amazement of many, U.S. car sales are at an annual run rate of 16 million vehicles. That comes close to matching the record years of 2006 and 2007, before the recession. The improvement has spread across most of the manufacturers. Total light vehicle sales rose 17% in August to just over 1.5 million. The only large car companies that were well short of that pace were Volkswagen and Hyundai, along with its stablemate Kia. Each is on its way toward being a bottom-tier car company in terms of American sales.

No car company can afford to miss being part of the U.S. auto sales success. Not with the catastrophe in Europe and slowing improvement in the world's largest market -- China. Sales in the People's Republic may be hampered for a long time as the government turns its attention to air pollution in its largest cities.

Both Hyundai and VW have a great deal to lose as their market shares erode in the United States. VW claims it is on a path to pass General Motors Co. (GM) and Toyota Motor Corp. (TM) as the world's largest car company. Hyundai's sales put it in 4th place among all global manufacturers. It needs to have a growing share of the American market to keep that place as well.

VW has not had much success in the United States since the Beetle model, which did well in the 1960s and early 1970s. The German manufacturer sold only 40,342 vehicles in the U.S. last month, which was down 1.6% from the same month a year ago. That puts it behind niche manufacturer Subaru, and well behind the Big 3 and major Japanese car makers. VW's lack of success has been blamed on the low grades its cars get for quality and a limited line up of models.

Kia and Hyundai were among the fastest selling brands in America for 3 years. But their sales have slowed considerably since about the same time as a scandal that involved its claims about how many MPG several of its vehicles got. The company was forced to revise its figures, which cannot have helped it with consumers. Hyundai sold only 66,101 cars and light trucks in August, up 8.2%. Its performance year to date is worse than that. Kia's sales for the month of August were up only 4% to 52,025, and year-to-date sales were also weak.

The quality of U.S. and Japanese cars targeted to the general market -- and Audi, BMW, Mercedes and Lexus targeted the luxury portion -- will make it very hard for VW and Hyundai to gain any footing. Neither company will enjoy the benefits of renaissance of the American auto industry.
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Old 09-05-13, 07:36 AM   #66
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It does seem a bit skewed, but who knows...
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Old 09-05-13, 08:53 AM   #67
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Originally Posted by ydooby View Post
Oh really? BMW and Mercedes's bestsellers (low-end, basic models according to you) are the 3, 5, C and E, all of which are actually properly engineered premium cars like the IS and the GS but unlike the ES. When people see a Lexus on the road most of the time it's either an RX or an ES, both of which are based on an admittedly mainstream platform. That's what most people see, and that's the kind of image Lexus projects for them--a "value" luxury brand. If Lexus is content with that image, fine. Being a value luxury brand is what kickstarted Lexus after all. But if they want to start being able to push high-end models in any meaningful quantities, this is the kind of image they'll need to start getting away with.
I think the mods and admin asked to knock-off the redundant ES argument every month in the sales thread.

As a longtime Lexus owner, as someone in the industry and beyond engaged with consumers I disagree with your image of Lexus and so does any report that shows Lexus is highly regarded and revered in the auto industry.

It is clear Lexus has figured out the IS/ES/GS can co-exist and last month might be best month they have ever had together.
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Old 09-05-13, 08:59 AM   #68
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TRDFantasy...

This baiting ends now. I mean ends... I don't need a "Who, me?" or "Why me?" or "Free country/ forum whatever".
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Old 09-05-13, 09:31 AM   #69
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Wow crazy sales #s !!!!

Lexus back at #1 is a big surprise for me. I know its just 1 month but still....NX and RC coupe will be doing some damage soon too.

IS - I'm so HAPPY to see sell well and especially the Fsport model.....I hope Lexus NA/Dealers sees this and starts to cater to the Lexus enthusiast customers. (Custom orders, more options etc)

GS - [unnecessary rant deleted]

RX - just a machine - perfect SUV for 90% of people imo....Not sure how NX will fit into this unless RX grows bigger for next model.

Cadillac - Awesome 20k + units - Hard work is starting to pay off.......New CTS and ATS coupe will help also.

3 Series - selling crazy again.....New 4 Series and X5 will increase BMW sales a lot in next 6-12 months.

MB Eclass - Wow just wow. Refresh is ugly imo but people just LOVE the three pointed star.

Infiniti Q50/G37 - What a mess.....

Acura - everything down except for MDX and RDX
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Last edited by bitkahuna; 09-05-13 at 06:58 PM.. Reason: ES screed deleted
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Old 09-05-13, 09:41 AM   #70
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Originally Posted by asoksevil View Post
I don't actually think that killing the ES is the way to go. I would instead rise ES status by designing an unique premium platform like the IS, GS and change its perception. I've been reading the ES forum and people who own an IS and a GS don't find the ES to be "that bad." The ES has a heritage, a history which is very well respected and it's one of the cash makers for Lexus, alongside the RX.

But I honestly think that Lexus market strategy is to divide the entry luxury sedan segment into two markets, the one aimed for performance and driving dynamics (IS) and the other one for comfort and smooth ride (ES).
Problem with raising the ES platform to premium is Lexus has that covered with the LS.
LS = Premium large luxury sedan

Best solution is to give the GS more engine options. - GS300h, GS200t (2.0 turbo), GS500(V8)

I would change the ES to hybrid only and make it what the HS was going to be. - Entry luxury midsize hybrid for people who care less about driver dynamics. Focusing on Comfort and Efficiency. Boom problem solved!
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Old 09-05-13, 09:54 AM   #71
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Originally Posted by RNM GS3 View Post
Wow crazy sales #s !!!!

Lexus back at #1 is a big surprise for me. I know its just 1 month but still....NX and RC coupe will be doing some damage soon too.

IS - I'm so HAPPY to see sell well and especially the Fsport model.....I hope Lexus NA/Dealers sees this and starts to cater to the Lexus enthusiast customers. (Custom orders, more options etc)

GS -
RX - just a machine - perfect SUV for 90% of people imo....Not sure how NX will fit into this unless RX grows bigger for next model.

Cadillac - Awesome 20k + units - Hard work is starting to pay off.......New CTS and ATS coupe will help also.

3 Series - selling crazy again.....New 4 Series and X5 will increase BMW sales a lot in next 6-12 months.

MB Eclass - Wow just wow. Refresh is ugly imo but people just LOVE the three pointed star.

Infiniti Q50/G37 - What a mess.....

Acura - everything down except for MDX and RDX
Agree with all of these points. Also be on the watch for the new S-class, CLA, and later the GLA to be coming on line very soon. They should be seeing a healthy sales bump.

Last edited by bitkahuna; 09-05-13 at 06:58 PM..
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Old 09-05-13, 10:13 AM   #72
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ES sales thru August = 49,281 +146%, on pace for 73k-74k for the year in NA alone.

Last edited by bitkahuna; 09-05-13 at 06:59 PM.. Reason: remove bait
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Old 09-05-13, 10:15 AM   #73
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Not sure how the GS selling 2200 units, 3rd in class and up over last year is weak? I think what is weak are the arguments over and over against the GS.

In how many languages must it be stated it will never be a volume car like the 5 or E? Without the ES it still WOULD NOT sell 5k a month, the ES starts 10k less than a GS
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Old 09-05-13, 12:19 PM   #74
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Oh really? BMW and Mercedes's bestsellers (low-end, basic models according to you) are the 3, 5, C and E, all of which are actually properly engineered premium cars like the IS and the GS but unlike the ES. When people see a Lexus on the road most of the time it's either an RX or an ES, both of which are based on an admittedly mainstream platform. That's what most people see, and that's the kind of image Lexus projects for them--a "value" luxury brand. If Lexus is content with that image, fine. Being a value luxury brand is what kickstarted Lexus after all. But if they want to start being able to push high-end models in any meaningful quantities, this is the kind of image they'll need to start getting away with.
A large portion of the German's worldwide sales come from models like the 1 Series, A3, A Class and B Class, as well as low-end base models of the 3,5, C, E, etc. Benz sells tons of E Classes as taxis in Europe, with tiny engines. A base C Class in Europe starts with a tiny 1.6L gas engine or a 2.0L diesel engine. The majority of C Class sales are from such low-end models, Lexus does not offer such low-end choices. There's nothing luxurious about having a tiny, weak 4 cyl gas engine in a C Class or E Class, with a 0-60 time slower than a Corolla. Yet a huge amount of the Benz worldwide sales come from that as an example.

Lexus only has the CT in the A3, A/B Class, 1 Series segment, while the Germans have a million low end variations of their low end models.

Also you've ignored what I said about the Germans offering fire sale lease rates in North America to keep volumes high. There's nothing prestigious or luxurious about desperately trying to maintain high volumes with fire sale lease rates. Lexus does not engage in such behavior, therefore is not so desperate for high sales volume using such methods.

The Germans' mastermind marketing has you fooled.

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TRDFantasy...

This baiting ends now. I mean ends... I don't need a "Who, me?" or "Why me?" or "Free country/ forum whatever".
Okay. Can you please then stop the constant baiting and trollish behavior from users like RNM GS3? Thank you.
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Old 09-05-13, 01:21 PM   #75
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I think the mods and admin asked to knock-off the redundant ES argument every month in the sales thread.
We did, unfortunately this month it started here

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Eat it haters, eat it! All the Lexus haters here and grumpy people, you're all clueless and clearly are out of touch with the market.
And personal callouts continued here after a moderator asked to knock it off.

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Okay. Can you please then stop the constant baiting and trollish behavior from users like RNM GS3? Thank you.
Trdfantasy, please exit this thread.

Folks lets keep the conversation on the vehicles, not the people.
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