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considering how much mags dislike M5, i find it amusing how many people here are willing to dismiss GS-F without even knowing single thing about it.
Most special thing about M5 is that it gets easily beaten by "old" E63 in most of comparos, which is a first for BMW.
But hey, lets talk down GS-F without knowing a single thing about it, and lets play up M5 while knowing its not a great car.
I respect your personal opinion but I would have to personally disagree with your opinion on the M5 F10.
Personally, I think the M5 F10 is a great car. It's one of the most exciting BMW M cars to-date (and I personally like it more over the M3/M4).
Sure, it has its weak sides (e.g. heavier weight compared to predecessor, no more NA V10 engine->now uses V8 Twin Turbo, OEM stock exhaust is okay but not exciting, some people don't like the fake exhaust sound inside the car, etc.).
Other than that, it is one awesome car.
The M5 with Competition Package (Option 7MA/ZCP) is exciting for me:
-adds an additional 15 HP (560 HP -> 575 HP)
-lowered suspension by 5 mm
-improved suspension geometry
-improved power steering
-improvement to the M Dynamic Mode (MDM)
Add Carbon Ceramic Brakes (Option 2NK) + BMW-Akrapovic M Performance Exhaust System and you get one hell of a vehicle.
In fact, I personally prefer it more over the E63 S AMG (though I have to admit that I can't discredit the Benz either.......because it has a wagon version and imho, performance wagons = awesome).
In short, I politely disagree with your statement that the M5 F10 is not a great car. Sure I admit that it has its flaws and it is not perfect........BUT I still believe that it is a great car. It is one hell of an awesome vehicle.
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Anyways, the Lexus GS-F NEEDS MINIMUM OF 500 HP (AT THE VERY LEAST)
There is some possible good news though
I've asked for some advice from members at other car forums when I asked the following question:
Can you get AT LEAST 500 HP from a 5.0 litter Naturally-Aspirated V8 engine?
From the responses I've gathered, it seems possible.
The BMW M3 E9X has 420 hp with a 4 liter engine ( perfect squared engine ) so 500 in a 5 liter is completely plausible.
500hp from 5l is 100hp/l
There are plenty of engines with a specific outpout of more than 100hp/l, so the 500hp goal is not a far fetched, or even difficult, target.
Honda and others made 100hp/l engines for production cars back in 2000 and the 1995 BMW S50B32 (E36 M3) engine made just a tad over 100hp/l as well.
As has been said above, it certainly is feasible to extract more than 100hp per litre from an N/A engine. I believe Toyota claimed 740hp from it's 2.4 V8 RVX-06 engine in 2006 (>300hp/litre)
GT3=475hp / 3.8L Flat 6
There is hope and we hope that it will happen. Here's hoping that Positive Thinking would yield to Positive Results
Brand prestige will not be driven by the masses, it starts with the enthusiasts.
not sure about that. lexus gained prestige with the LS400 among former 7/s-class owners who loved the idea of something more refined, more reliable, and a heck of a lot cheaper.
and brands like rolls royce certainly have prestige, but not really any enthusiasts.
Maybe they are not enthusiasts , but they certainly are not the masses.... And many where enthusiasts at one point then not so much, I see that everyday on here.
Where are the M and AMG brands without the enthusiasts? And without those halo's where does the core brands equity stand?
You see the amg ad and you want to be apart of it but can't afford it. You buy a model or two down but still feel associated with the amg killer, this is nothing new.
Thanks for the marketing 101 class input, but I think many in here asking for more are also the ones writing the checks for 70-80-90-100k, so yeah we will keep demanding more
Your 17 and 18 year old friends are going for the NX with someone else's money and likely do not care, but I do think there are many educated car buyers on here and over all in general that do a lot of research and ask questions so to say the middle age moms are ignorant is pretty silly.
And anyone can cherry pick stats, its easy! How does Lexus sales look world wide vs BMW, MB and Audi?
And the LFA, GS-F, IS-F and RC-F and everything all things F-Sport goes against everything you just wrote, Lexus is not the soft floaty brand it use to be, it has out german the germans in many cases.....
Nice try though.....
1-Nobody in America cares about how BMW/MB/AUDI out sells Lexus by huge amounts in China. Which btw is the main market for those cars outside of the USA/EUROPE.
People in AMERICA care about America's market.
2-I'm going to leave you to figure out why Lexus can't sell in China. Think real hard on that one.
Lexus is doing a great job this year though of over coming the Japanese bias. When I was in Shanghai, I see a large amount of new Lexuses driving around the city. This is a big point since in China, Lexus is more expensive than Audi. So bright futures there.
3- I think living on Club Lexus and talking with other people on forums have literally clouded your judgement of just how niche you guys are. Trust me.................99% of the population don't know anything about torque or performance or 'AMG'. I find it absurd you will argue that point.
I talked to literally dozens of car buyers during my shopping for a new car this month and not one of these people know the difference between a RCF and a M4. Or a C63 AMG vs a C Class.
I actually asked. They think the AMG is just another 'Benz'.
4- The Germans took over the #1 status in America not because they had more 'AMGS' or more 'DMGS' or MMM' or whatever absurd name they are currently coming up with. They took the #1 spot because of the incredible lease options and Lexus's Japanese issues back in 2011. Lexus as a product was also growing stale.....
5- You think Lexus is on track to crack 300,000 units this month because of the 'LFA AND THE RC F? No............they are on track to crack 300,000 units because they decided to make their cars look flashy and be more in tuned with driving dynamics. 'Super Performance' lines have nothing to do with it. The vast majority of the people buying the IS isn't buying it because they want to feel 'closer to the LFA' or 'feel like they are part of the F SPORT tradition'. They are buying it because it looks nice, it's a Lexus, and it handles well.
6-It don't matter if Lexus had 100 different types of F SPORTS and LFA'S...........they would still have lost the #1 sales spot to the Germans in 2011/2012. Germans having more 'performance' models have nothing to do with it.
7-One last time........................Trust me or not. But this is true. THE VAST MAJORITY OF AMERICA do NOT know anything about the AMG/ F SPORT/M LINE. They don't.
8- Prestige is build through the LS Type cars and the S/7 type cars. Not the AMG types. Well unless you are like 16 years old.
9-Lexus can JUST THROW the GS F into the toilet and completely abandon this entire GS-F plan and they WILL still be top 3 next year in the American Luxury industry. In fact, they will probably be #1 in 2015 in America.
Oh and one last thing. My parents, my friends parents, and all their friends know nothing and I MEAN nothing about 335I or 'performance' or LFAS.............
They do know that new Lexus/MB/BMW=Good. And that's enough incentive for them to write those 40-100k checks.
9-Lexus can JUST THROW the GS F into the toilet and completely abandon this entire GS-F plan and they WILL still be top 3 next year in the American Luxury industry. In fact, they will probably be #1 in 2015 in America.
Obviously as enthusiasts we don't want them to do this, but I can't argue with this...she's right.
Well talking about the horsepower, 640/630 doesn't sound that bad at all
The big news is what's underhood: General Motors' supercharged, 6.2-liter LT4 V8, tuned to 640 horsepower and 630 pound-feet of torque. That's 10 hp and 20 lb-ft less than the monstrous Corvette Z06, and the result is the most powerful car Cadillac has ever produced. With rear-wheel drive, launch control and the eight-speed automatic transmission (sorry, folks – no more manual transmission here), Cadillac says the 2016 CTS-V will sprint to 60 miles per hour in just 3.7 seconds, on its way to a top speed of 200 miles per hour.
Well talking about the horsepower, 640/630 doesn't sound that bad at all
Come on man, don't talk about horsepower here. It's all about weight and handling... WAIT
Quote from an article on Autoblog
Naturally, Cadillac's engineers say they have tuned the CTS-V to ensure it can put all that power to the ground with the most precision and poise possible. That starts with the excellent Magnetic Ride Control active damping system (with a claimed 40-percent increase in responsiveness)and a 25-percent increase in structural stiffness that should improve overall handling and steering. What's more, a high-performance Brembo brake package comes standard, as do 19-inch alloy wheels wrapped in seriously sticky Michelin Pilot Super Sport tires that will reportedly offer 1g in lateral acceleration.
Cadillac also says that all changes to the bodywork are functional. That includes a carbon-fiber hood, front splitter, rear spoiler and diffuser that are super light and aid with aerodynamics and weight reduction – all of which will be available as an optional package for folks who like the exposed carbon look. Inside, it's more of what we're used to on lesser CTS models, but there's newly optional carbon fiber trim, microfiber suede upholstery trim, and some seriously awesome Recaro seats.
Yup, standard pilot super sport tires wrapped around 19" wheels. This is track monster setup, not some douche 20" wheels.
The M5 with Competition Package (Option 7MA/ZCP) is exciting for me:
-adds an additional 15 HP (560 HP -> 575 HP)
-lowered suspension by 5 mm
-improved suspension geometry
-improved power steering
-improvement to the M Dynamic Mode (MDM)
well, every mag blasted it in comparo... BMW did Competition package to improve it - which is partially silly - roll these into M5 standard, dont charge extra for "improved suspension".
Heck, even that didnt make mags select it over E63... car based on very old platform.
So while we can have personal opinions of course, there is no doubt that critically this has been the most underwhelming M5 to date.
Again, we can love flawed cars, what I am mentioning is that we are giving free ride to worst M5, and attacking GS-F that we dont know anything about except that it is GS-F.
It feels like some members cant wait to comment negatively.
Are you making a strawman argument ???
I didn't know the M5 has really been played up at all, I said they dropped the ball with the M5, and other comments here about the M5 are not complimentary either
And all we are talking about is a hypothetical GS F based on your projection, not really the real thing , no ??
Ummm ....... what about the old (and new) E63 that can easily beat the M5 that a GS F will be facing ? and the RS6 and Caddy ?
well a lot of people here, mentioned how great M brand is and that Lexus cant compete with "this" GS-F. Including the post I quoted :-).
So, if GS-F ends up being better car than M5... will it still be failure in your eyes?
Very often people expect Lexus to be better than best pieces of all other vehicles combined into one super car, which is very unrealistic expectation.
well, every mag blasted it in comparo... BMW did Competition package to improve it - which is partially silly - roll these into M5 standard, dont charge extra for "improved suspension".
Heck, even that didnt make mags select it over E63... car based on very old platform.
So while we can have personal opinions of course, there is no doubt that critically this has been the most underwhelming M5 to date.
Again, we can love flawed cars, what I am mentioning is that we are giving free ride to worst M5, and attacking GS-F that we dont know anything about except that it is GS-F.
It feels like some members cant wait to comment negatively.
Hehe I see.
Still, I believe this is an opportunity for Lexus to make a statement. This is their very first performance vehicle in this segment so I'm hoping that they can wow us in this aspect.
Personally for me, if Lexus releases this car with AT LEAST 500 HP (MINIMUM), then I would definitely prioritize it over even the M5 CP.
Fail to do so (aka rumored 487 HP) and the status quo for me won't change.
12-21-14, 01:36 PM
