sick21

Hmm. I want a GS F buuuut I don't think I could afford that for a while

peteharvey

Traditionally, most of the compacts and midsize cars platform share.
The 2007-14 C Class shares platforms with the 2009-16 E Class.
Likewise the 2003-10 5 Series shares with the 2005-12 3 Series.
The Audi A4 and A6 also platform share; in the 1990's, the VW Passat, Audi A4, and Audi A6 all basically rode on the same platform.
Likewise, Lexus' 2012-19 4GS shares platforms with the 2013-20 3IS.

However, the current 2010-17 5 Series does not share platforms with the 2012-19 3 Series.
The current 5 Series presently platform shares with the 2008-15 7 Series.

Because the 3 and 5 Series are on two separate platforms, while the 3IS/1RC/4GS platform share, the 3 Series is very light, while the 5 Series is very heavy, with the IS/RC/GS at an intermediate weight in between the other two.

Hence the relatively lighter 4GS tends to have handling advantages over its peers, while the relatively heavier 3IS handling amongst its peers is not as convincing.

Weight doesn't just affect the handling, weight also affects the rigidity too; with an intermediate platform between compact and midsize, the IS theoretically tends to be more rigid, while the same platform on a two inch longer wheelbase in the 4GS is not as rigid.

We must take the gravy with the dirt, so if we can rejoice in the 4GS' chassis, we must be humble with the 3IS and 1RC' chassis.
Don't forget that on the same platform, the shorter wheelbase IS & RC will be more rigid than the longer wheelbase GS.

Much of a car is about compromise; the more we have of A, the less we have of B - it boils down to our individual preferences for strengths and weaknesses which determines our final choice.
What's good for one person, may not necessarily be good for another person.
One particular design may end up being more popular, hence better selling, and often more profitable, however sales is not necessarily an indicator of quality...

obturator

And for this ^^ reason, the GSF will have the weight advantage versus its competition. It's not some frankenstein chassis like the RCF, but its very own, developed from the ground up. Heck, it may be more powerful and lighter than the RCF. And you know what, that's ok--not a knock on the RCF. If something wicked is coming this way, its hp to weight ratio better be in line with the competition, or else Lexus might as well not slap the F emblem on it and dilute the brand. I'd rather Lexus label it the GS500 F sport, like another poster stated... And then wait for something truly special because the F marquee must be special. What is "special," you ask? Just look at ///M, AMG, and RS. You say Lexus isn't targeting these cars. Well, I say it doesn't matter what Lexus says. Public opinion/media will compare these cars regardlessly if F is branded on the car. If it gets panned, then the F marquee will take a step backwards. The GSF does not have to win every comparo, or a single one. It just needs to be competitive. Stats aren't everything--you just need to be in the conversation.

spwolf

considering how much mags dislike M5, i find it amusing how many people here are willing to dismiss GS-F without even knowing single thing about it.

Most special thing about M5 is that it gets easily beaten by "old" E63 in most of comparos, which is a first for BMW.

But hey, lets talk down GS-F without knowing a single thing about it, and lets play up M5 while knowing its not a great car.

Hoovey689

iTrader: (16)

Then let's talk up !

- Expands F line

- Midsize RWD V8 sedan

- Will likely handle well via Torsen and TVD diffs as well as LFA, 4GS, 3IS, RC/F handling bits and engineering practices

- Lexus has Takumi

peteharvey

Yes.
Lexus' shared platform makes the IS & RC heavier than the M3/M4 (which have their own compact platform).

However the shared platform also makes the GS lighter than current 2010-17 F10 5 Series [based on 2008-15 7 Series platform].

The old 2003-10 E60 M5 V10 was 4090 lbs [1855 kg], but the new 2010-17 F10 M5 V8 Twin Turbo despite some carbon fibre components is 4310 lbs [1945 kg], and therefore slightly heavier than a 4GS450h gasoline-electric hybrid.

With a lower weight, the GS F is in with a chance in the straight line depending on the actual weight, and the actual power.
With a lower weight, the GS F chassis dynamics supremacy will continue from the GS350.

The Benz E Class also shares platforms with the old C Class - no wonder the E63 is giving the new M5 problems.

obturator

Most mags do dislike the M5, but they also give it its due respect. Why? Simply because of ///M heritage. Lexus does not have this pass. Unfair. Yes. Lexus must earn it the hard way. How many times have you seen mags write about the midsize luxury segment (5, E, A6) and leave out the GS?

TF109B

The M4 is not that light. Dont let the "3400lb" quote fool you. Its at least 3600-3700lbs. and has low content vs the RC F. This is the difference with Lexus. They give you Luxury with their performance in the F cars. The GS F will further that. No one here can say this car should be called GS 500. Unless you work inside Lexus and are involved in this project, no one knows what the power or weight will be. Like I said earlier, all we have is guesses. Hell, were not even 100% sure its the same V8 in the RC F (although its pretty obvious). Sharing engines isnt even bad, especially since we know from Lexus themselves that the RC F's V8 has plenty more to give.

Gojirra99

Are you making a strawman argument ???
I didn't know the M5 has really been played up at all, I said they dropped the ball with the M5, and other comments here about the M5 are not complimentary either
And all we are talking about is a hypothetical GS F based on your projection, not really the real thing , no ??
Ummm ....... what about the old (and new) E63 that can easily beat the M5 that a GS F will be facing ? and the RS6 and Caddy ?

J.P.

On a positive side, what are some things the GS-F could have that would be realistic but surprising?

We seen what the RC-F has, what are realistic things we could see above and beyond the RC-F?

AmyWilliam

With all due respect why should Lexus care? It's not like they are Acura.
Lexus have been the #1 selling luxury brand from 2000-2010. Even during their worst year of the last 14, they still finished 3rd. Lexus at it's worst finishes 3rd in luxury sales. Their current direction is working and they are on pace to sell 300,000+. Will probably outsell Audi in the United States by 100,000 units.

For you guys to want Lexus to be even 'greater' that will mean the end of MB/BMW. Because that's how close it is in sales right now. Take a look at how the Lexus line up compares to BMW'S from the mainstream segments.


IS Line up vs 3 Series
GS VS 5
LS VS 7
RC 350 VS 4 SERIES
NX/RX/GX VS X1/X3/X5/X6
RCF V M4

Take a close look at that line up. Can we say BMW got the better cars from those segments?

Asking for even more than what Lexus currently have means that you guys aspire Lexus to go even higher..........which I'm sure they can but that sort of inspiration usually comes when a Brand starts failing and starts declining. Lexus's 'decline' year would be more like Acura or Audi's greatest ever in America. It's really hard for Lexus to be motivated to what?
Sell 310,000 instead of 300,000.

I don't think Lexus will ever solely focus on performance. Because at the end of the day. What sells in a mainstream luxury brand. To the actual public. Not to the small niche of car forum buyers but to the actual public? Is still a flashy look, great reliabilty, great service, and luxury luxury luxury. Lexus realized that they began to lose in the 'looks' department when they lost the sales race against BMW/MB and that their product have gotten stale(or maybe the Japanese situation had more to do with this than even Lexus thought). So Lexus changed their entire approach. It worked.

Most American car buyers don't know anything about torque or weight ratio or 'dynamics' of tuning or AWD VS RWD VS FWD stuff. They judge a car by it's brand/looks/interior comfort/price.
This is why the NX is on fire right now. It's a luxury suvs that looks great. I highly doubt all these middle age Moms buying the NX right now know the difference between the NX 200T vs Q3'S 'handling and speed'.

J.P.

Thanks for the marketing 101 class input, but I think many in here asking for more are also the ones writing the checks for 70-80-90-100k, so yeah we will keep demanding more

Your 17 and 18 year old friends are going for the NX with someone else's money and likely do not care, but I do think there are many educated car buyers on here and over all in general that do a lot of research and ask questions so to say the middle age moms are ignorant is pretty silly.

And anyone can cherry pick stats, its easy! How does Lexus sales look world wide vs BMW, MB and Audi?

And the LFA, GS-F, IS-F and RC-F and everything all things F-Sport goes against everything you just wrote, Lexus is not the soft floaty brand it use to be, it has out german the germans in many cases.....

Nice try though.....

Joeb427

iTrader: (1)

SW17LS

I will share the story I shared back when I got my GS in 2012. I was sitting there while they were working up the paperwork, an older couple had come in when I had come in and told the receptionist they were "there to buy a car". They had been given to a salesman, who of course showed them an ES350.

Well, they were back from their test drive and were sitting across from me with the salesman and he was talking about options, explaining the luxury package, the navigation package etc, and he closed them and said "do you think the navigation or the luxury package would be better for you?" (an alternate choice close for those of you that arent salespeople). The wife looks at the husband and says "Well, we'd like it to have air conditioning" LOL

When my guy came back I told him the story under my breath and asked him how often customers are like that, to which he told me about 60-65% of their customers have no idea what they want, just come in to buy a car, and buy whatever they put in front of them.

When I went in to get my tags there was a guy in front of me at the receptionists desk that said he wanted to look at a car, and she said "Let me get you a salesperson, do you know what car you would like to look at?" and he said "a red one". I'm seriously not kidding or exaggerating one bit.

I also have two coworkers who traded 5 Series BMWs in on Lexus ES's, mostly because of me telling them how much more reliable a Lexus was and their BMWs were problematic. Neither one of them understood my surprise that they choose the ES and didn't understand why I considered the ES a downgrade from the 5 Series. I mentioned it being FWD vs RWD etc etc...blank stares. One other coworker traded her 2GS in on a 6ES...also had no idea that there was anything different from what she had before to what she had now.

So...there is some truth to what Amy is saying lol

J.P.

If those people built luxury brands I guess we would not need F anything.... Every car company has we don't know what we want people and with the way Lexus packages things, they came to the right brand

If Lexus thought they could take the company forward in the next 50 years with those people they don't build the LFA because the money would have been better spent elsewhere.

Brand prestige will not be driven by the masses, it starts with the enthusiasts.