View Poll Results: Is this the GS F?
Yes
4
66.67%
No
2
33.33%
Voters: 6. You may not vote on this poll
Lexus GS F sightings (updated pg 20)
12-22-14, 12:22 AM
#556
Lexus Test Driver
1-Nobody in America cares about how BMW/MB/AUDI out sells Lexus by huge amounts in China. Which btw is the main market for those cars outside of the USA/EUROPE.
People in AMERICA care about America's market.
2-I'm going to leave you to figure out why Lexus can't sell in China. Think real hard on that one.
Lexus is doing a great job this year though of over coming the Japanese bias. When I was in Shanghai, I see a large amount of new Lexuses driving around the city. This is a big point since in China, Lexus is more expensive than Audi. So bright futures there.
3- I think living on Club Lexus and talking with other people on forums have literally clouded your judgement of just how niche you guys are. Trust me.................99% of the population don't know anything about torque or performance or 'AMG'. I find it absurd you will argue that point.
I talked to literally dozens of car buyers during my shopping for a new car this month and not one of these people know the difference between a RCF and a M4. Or a C63 AMG vs a C Class.
I actually asked. They think the AMG is just another 'Benz'.
4- The Germans took over the #1 status in America not because they had more 'AMGS' or more 'DMGS' or MMM' or whatever absurd name they are currently coming up with. They took the #1 spot because of the incredible lease options and Lexus's Japanese issues back in 2011. Lexus as a product was also growing stale.....
5- You think Lexus is on track to crack 300,000 units this month because of the 'LFA AND THE RC F? No............they are on track to crack 300,000 units because they decided to make their cars look flashy and be more in tuned with driving dynamics. 'Super Performance' lines have nothing to do with it. The vast majority of the people buying the IS isn't buying it because they want to feel 'closer to the LFA' or 'feel like they are part of the F SPORT tradition'. They are buying it because it looks nice, it's a Lexus, and it handles well.
6-It don't matter if Lexus had 100 different types of F SPORTS and LFA'S...........they would still have lost the #1 sales spot to the Germans in 2011/2012. Germans having more 'performance' models have nothing to do with it.
7-One last time........................Trust me or not. But this is true. THE VAST MAJORITY OF AMERICA do NOT know anything about the AMG/ F SPORT/M LINE. They don't.
8- Prestige is build through the LS Type cars and the S/7 type cars. Not the AMG types. Well unless you are like 16 years old.
9-Lexus can JUST THROW the GS F into the toilet and completely abandon this entire GS-F plan and they WILL still be top 3 next year in the American Luxury industry. In fact, they will probably be #1 in 2015 in America.
Oh and one last thing. My parents, my friends parents, and all their friends know nothing and I MEAN nothing about 335I or 'performance' or LFAS.............
They do know that new Lexus/MB/BMW=Good. And that's enough incentive for them to write those 40-100k checks.
People in AMERICA care about America's market.
2-I'm going to leave you to figure out why Lexus can't sell in China. Think real hard on that one.
Lexus is doing a great job this year though of over coming the Japanese bias. When I was in Shanghai, I see a large amount of new Lexuses driving around the city. This is a big point since in China, Lexus is more expensive than Audi. So bright futures there.
3- I think living on Club Lexus and talking with other people on forums have literally clouded your judgement of just how niche you guys are. Trust me.................99% of the population don't know anything about torque or performance or 'AMG'. I find it absurd you will argue that point.
I talked to literally dozens of car buyers during my shopping for a new car this month and not one of these people know the difference between a RCF and a M4. Or a C63 AMG vs a C Class.
I actually asked. They think the AMG is just another 'Benz'.
4- The Germans took over the #1 status in America not because they had more 'AMGS' or more 'DMGS' or MMM' or whatever absurd name they are currently coming up with. They took the #1 spot because of the incredible lease options and Lexus's Japanese issues back in 2011. Lexus as a product was also growing stale.....
5- You think Lexus is on track to crack 300,000 units this month because of the 'LFA AND THE RC F? No............they are on track to crack 300,000 units because they decided to make their cars look flashy and be more in tuned with driving dynamics. 'Super Performance' lines have nothing to do with it. The vast majority of the people buying the IS isn't buying it because they want to feel 'closer to the LFA' or 'feel like they are part of the F SPORT tradition'. They are buying it because it looks nice, it's a Lexus, and it handles well.
6-It don't matter if Lexus had 100 different types of F SPORTS and LFA'S...........they would still have lost the #1 sales spot to the Germans in 2011/2012. Germans having more 'performance' models have nothing to do with it.
7-One last time........................Trust me or not. But this is true. THE VAST MAJORITY OF AMERICA do NOT know anything about the AMG/ F SPORT/M LINE. They don't.
8- Prestige is build through the LS Type cars and the S/7 type cars. Not the AMG types. Well unless you are like 16 years old.
9-Lexus can JUST THROW the GS F into the toilet and completely abandon this entire GS-F plan and they WILL still be top 3 next year in the American Luxury industry. In fact, they will probably be #1 in 2015 in America.
Oh and one last thing. My parents, my friends parents, and all their friends know nothing and I MEAN nothing about 335I or 'performance' or LFAS.............
They do know that new Lexus/MB/BMW=Good. And that's enough incentive for them to write those 40-100k checks.
I guess the Marketing ppl are all idiots putting //M, AMG, F badges on SPORT PACKAGES right?
I guess every single Lexus commercial that STILL shows an LFA and RCF is pointless?
Luxury and Performance go hand in hand.
There is a reason Porsche is making a killing selling SUVs.......
Last edited by RNM GS3; 12-22-14 at 12:28 AM.
12-22-14, 12:34 AM
#557
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Most American car buyers don't know anything about torque or weight ratio or 'dynamics' of tuning or AWD VS RWD VS FWD stuff. They judge a car by it's brand/looks/interior comfort/price.
This is why the NX is on fire right now. It's a luxury suvs that looks great. I highly doubt all these middle age Moms buying the NX right now know the difference between the NX 200T vs Q3'S 'handling and speed'.
This is why the NX is on fire right now. It's a luxury suvs that looks great. I highly doubt all these middle age Moms buying the NX right now know the difference between the NX 200T vs Q3'S 'handling and speed'.
Hence why BMW are slowing shifting their smaller offering into FWD after stating non stop for decades that they would never do it. There are many reports that they did marketing on people who bought 1 and 3 series, and the vast majority did not know it was rear wheel drive, nor did they care. We can see it with the current 3 series; the standard suspension setup is actually quite "floaty" and not at all BMW-like. The IS and new C Class's suspension leaves it for dead. However the M Sport adaptive suspension is excellent. However, in Australia, the takeup rate of the adaptive suspension on 3 series is between 5-10%. People don't care however if it can't handle; if it's got the propeller, or the 3 pointed star, it could be a glitter covered turd and they'd still buy it. Hence why Audi is so popular (and profitable) - people don't seem to care that they're paying a premium for what is an amalgamation of VW grade parts. Yet people don't seem to understand when Audi routinely rates lower than the other premium brands in the reliability/quality surveys, and suprisingly close to VW.
In summary, the masses buy the badge. As long as it has a "luxury" badge, and some nice interior/luxury about it, that gets the brand 9 out of 10 sales.
12-22-14, 12:38 AM
#558
What are you saying???
I guess the Marketing ppl are all idiots putting //M, AMG, F badges on SPORT PACKAGES right?
I guess every single Lexus commercial that STILL shows an LFA and RCF is pointless?
Luxury and Performance go hand in hand.
There is a reason Porsche is making a killing selling SUVs.......
I guess the Marketing ppl are all idiots putting //M, AMG, F badges on SPORT PACKAGES right?
I guess every single Lexus commercial that STILL shows an LFA and RCF is pointless?
Luxury and Performance go hand in hand.
There is a reason Porsche is making a killing selling SUVs.......
12-22-14, 12:42 AM
#559
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Porsche makes a killing selling SUVs because they're by far the cheapest way to get a Porsche badge. Even if the Macan couldn't outperform an X5 or an ML, you can bet it'd still sell like hotcakes simply because what it wears on the front. There's plenty of Macans near where I live, and personally four out of every five are driven by middle aged women, with children in the back. Not exactly the type that'll take the car to the track, or even use half of the available performance. That's not to say the Macan doesn't steer or drive well, it does, but the fact is that it wouldn't really make that much of a difference.
Personally, I think the idea of the Porsche SUV is wrong - speaking as a family who have owned a few Porsches over the years, I understand they're doing it to keep the VW beancounters happy, but to be honest, it dilutes the brand when they could be utilising their time/efforts on vehicles that are more worthy of the badge.
Personally, I think the idea of the Porsche SUV is wrong - speaking as a family who have owned a few Porsches over the years, I understand they're doing it to keep the VW beancounters happy, but to be honest, it dilutes the brand when they could be utilising their time/efforts on vehicles that are more worthy of the badge.
12-22-14, 12:47 AM
#560
Lexus Test Driver
My point is its silly to think average people dont care about performance.
Sure ur average Joe / Jane may not know how much HP or the 0-60 time of a car but they sure KNOW about Porsche, Ferrari, Mustang etc
Therefore they buy those products based on what they feel experts feel is best.
Its like a person shopping for their first NICE watch for $10-20k, 80-90% of the time it will be a Rolex
Nowadays, Performance is huge to building a Luxury brand.
Sure ur average Joe / Jane may not know how much HP or the 0-60 time of a car but they sure KNOW about Porsche, Ferrari, Mustang etc
Therefore they buy those products based on what they feel experts feel is best.
Its like a person shopping for their first NICE watch for $10-20k, 80-90% of the time it will be a Rolex
Nowadays, Performance is huge to building a Luxury brand.
12-22-14, 12:47 AM
#561
Pole Position
well, every mag blasted it in comparo... BMW did Competition package to improve it - which is partially silly - roll these into M5 standard, dont charge extra for "improved suspension".
Heck, even that didnt make mags select it over E63... car based on very old platform.
So while we can have personal opinions of course, there is no doubt that critically this has been the most underwhelming M5 to date.
Again, we can love flawed cars, what I am mentioning is that we are giving free ride to worst M5, and attacking GS-F that we dont know anything about except that it is GS-F.
It feels like some members cant wait to comment negatively.
Heck, even that didnt make mags select it over E63... car based on very old platform.
So while we can have personal opinions of course, there is no doubt that critically this has been the most underwhelming M5 to date.
Again, we can love flawed cars, what I am mentioning is that we are giving free ride to worst M5, and attacking GS-F that we dont know anything about except that it is GS-F.
It feels like some members cant wait to comment negatively.
Paying silly money just to get an M5 to handle decently on the track is laughable IMO. The stock M5 should be already be a track monster from the get go.
If the GS-F posts faster track times than the M5 despite having less hp, then it has enough power IMO. Anything else is just for bragging rights. I understand the importance of having superior hp numbers from a marketing perspective but as enlightened car enthusiasts, we should pride ourselves on being sophisticated enough not to rely on simplistic numbers comparison but to get at the heart of the driving experience.
Last edited by natnut; 12-22-14 at 12:57 AM.
12-22-14, 12:57 AM
#562
Lexus Test Driver
Porsche makes a killing selling SUVs because they're by far the cheapest way to get a Porsche badge. Even if the Macan couldn't outperform an X5 or an ML, you can bet it'd still sell like hotcakes simply because what it wears on the front. There's plenty of Macans near where I live, and personally four out of every five are driven by middle aged women, with children in the back. Not exactly the type that'll take the car to the track, or even use half of the available performance. That's not to say the Macan doesn't steer or drive well, it does, but the fact is that it wouldn't really make that much of a difference.
Even if vehicle they are buying may not have performance at all or they will only drive it to the mall - they still want to project certain image.
12-22-14, 01:44 AM
#563
But I think thats beyond this thread though.
The way marketing does it that they pump up their $100k car and then sell you $60k version of it.
12-22-14, 01:49 AM
#564
Also how much does a Competition Package M5 cost?
Paying silly money just to get an M5 to handle decently on the track is laughable IMO. The stock M5 should be already be a track monster from the get go.
If the GS-F posts faster track times than the M5 despite having less hp, then it has enough power IMO. Anything else is just for bragging rights. I understand the importance of having superior hp numbers from a marketing perspective but as enlightened car enthusiasts, we should pride ourselves on being sophisticated enough not to rely on simplistic numbers comparison but to get at the heart of the driving experience.
Paying silly money just to get an M5 to handle decently on the track is laughable IMO. The stock M5 should be already be a track monster from the get go.
If the GS-F posts faster track times than the M5 despite having less hp, then it has enough power IMO. Anything else is just for bragging rights. I understand the importance of having superior hp numbers from a marketing perspective but as enlightened car enthusiasts, we should pride ourselves on being sophisticated enough not to rely on simplistic numbers comparison but to get at the heart of the driving experience.
12-22-14, 04:53 AM
#565
Lead Lap
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in the end, they obviously dont really, otherwise they wouldnt be buying all those 4cly in luxury cars, right? While they are good engines in their own right, they cant really hold candle to 6cly engines from same manufacturers.
But I think thats beyond this thread though.
The way marketing does it that they pump up their $100k car and then sell you $60k version of it.
But I think thats beyond this thread though.
The way marketing does it that they pump up their $100k car and then sell you $60k version of it.
Obviously most know that Lexus wasn't concerned with performance vehicles for many years but I assure you Lexus knows the potential benefits of performance vehicles. In my eyes performance vehicles give the rich and who ever likes to show off their worth an excuse to do so while helping to bring in aspiring customers. I could be wrong however and the real reason companies make these cars is to bring in more money.
But then again everyone loves the idea of a sport or at least sporty appearance. Why else do you see so many Toyota Corollas with the S sport package? Same goes to the Camry SE which Toyota said sells in relatively high numbers and even prompted them to produce a Camry SE Hybrid.
Also think about this, BMW and Mercedes, following on the idea of Audis mid-level S performance line are about to introduce their M-Sport (M340i so far) and AMG Sport (C450 AMG Sport and GLE450 AMG Sport) because for not much R&D both companies can charge a good amount more $$$ AND give the more pedestrian buyers more of that famous "SPORT" without having to jump to the much more expensive M and AMG. (Also why F-Sport was created)
The non enthusiast buy the masses of normal cars but it is the enthusiast that generates the buzz and gets the people talking about the brand. More/exciting cars won't add much to overall sales but who cares they do much more positively for brand perception.
12-22-14, 08:07 AM
#566
I posted this in the CTS V thread but will post it here as I believe that it is just as relevant.
There are two factors at play here: 1) what people say who will only compare these cars through a computer screen and 2) what people think who actually have the ability and interest in buying them.
There are two factors at play here: 1) what people say who will only compare these cars through a computer screen and 2) what people think who actually have the ability and interest in buying them.
To be fair, this CTS V is very impressive on paper and I have no doubt that it may well prove to be the best performance sedan of the group (incredible engine, low-ish weight and Cadillac's amazing magnetic ride control technology.)
However, since everyone is murdering the GS F based on fictional specs, lets take a quick look at the CTS V's competitive set:
Cadillac CTS V:
4,150 lbs
640hp/630 lb-ft of torque
0-60 in 3.7 seconds
HP-to-weight ratio: 6.5 lbs per hp
Audi S6:
4,398 lbs
420hp/406 lb-ft of torque
0-60 in 4.5 seconds (tested at 3.7)
HP-to-weight ratio: 10.5 lbs per hp
Audi RS7:
4,475 lbs
560hp/516 lb-ft of torque
0-60 in 3.7 seconds (tested at 3.4)
HP-to-weight ratio: 8 lbs per hp
BMW M5:
4,387 lbs
560 - 575hp/500 lb-ft of torque
0-60 in 4.2 seconds (tested at 3.7)
HP-to-weight ratio: 7.7 lbs per hp
Mercedes-Benz E63 AMG 4Matic
4,674 lbs
550hp/531 lb-ft of torque
0-60 in 3.6 seconds (tested at 4.0)
HP-to-weight ratio: 8.5 lbs per hp
Jaguar XFR-S
4,380 lbs
550 hp/502 lb-ft of torque
0-60 in 4.4 seconds
HP-to-weight ratio: 8 lbs per hp
Jaguar XFR
4,134 lbs
510 hp/ 461 lb-ft of torque
0-60 in 4.7 seconds (tested at 4.0)
HP-to-weight ratio: 8.1 lbs per hp
If you are a spec racer, the CTS V quite simply blows everything else out of the water. Period. Anyone spec racing these cars will list their M5s and E63s for sale TODAY and place an order for a CTS V. After all, why on earth would you buy a car with less horsepower than one that is available with as much as 640 hp? Fools!
However, in the real world, if you bought a CTS V, there's a very good chance that an 80hp less powerful M5 or 220hp less powerful S6 could keep up with you nose-to-nose from a dig. Don't try lining up with an RS7, as that Audi has been tested as low as 3.4 seconds 0-60. The Jaguar XFR-S's 4.4 second estimate for 0-60 has been called "conservative" by most magazines, and the "lowly 510hp" XFR has been clocked .7 seconds faster than the manufacturer's estimated time of 4.7 seconds. Do the math there, and the XFR-S could also be door-to-door with your CTS V early in a race, though the CTS V would surely start to walk away as the pavement opens up. Let's also not lose sight of the fact that Mercedes quotes the E63 AMG 4Matic's 0-60 time faster than what Cadillac quotes for the CTS V... interesting!
If this seems like a heavy dose of alphabet soup mixed in with senseless numbers, that's pretty much exactly what it is. The predominant thought process here and elsewhere seems to be that people who own an S6, XFR or XFR-S will be laughed out of Chilis on a Friday night because they could have bought something faster in an M5 or E63. The reality is that many of these actual buyers are looking for something that moves the needle a little further for their favorite brand, or an emotional design that appeals to their eye, or an overall experience/package that says, "Gotta have it."
The guy who bought his first A4 ten years ago, has been happily upgrading to A6s and just got the VP promotion and wants something a little more raw... He buys an S6. The guy who has had a few Jaguars but left the brand for Lexus or Mercedes sees something with some attitude and grit and comes back to Jag for an XFR. The guy who owned LSs for two decades, has been very happy with Lexus, just sent his last kid off to college and wants something with more performance and edge... he buys a GS F.
This is how people really buy these cars. They do not come into the BMW dealership, slap down the Cadillac CTS V press release on a sales manager's desk and demand that BMW buys back their M5 Competition Pack because it's no longer the fastest car on the block. They do not jump onto mbworld and trash talk the E63 4Matic the day that the CTS V comes out, same for bimmerfest and the M5.
I know it's a lot of fun to sit behind a computer screen and compare specs, but when you factor in real world buying decisions and you talk to actual buyers (even in this class of car), specs are not as important as we make them seem. A lot of it is emotional and about how the car looks, feels and sounds. What is the overall experience like? Sure, it's fast. From the driver's seat, an M5 or E63 or XFR or S6 all feel similarly "fast" and your average buyer doesn't bring performance equipment on a test drive, or make an excel chart of quoted/tested performance figures.
If anything, the list above represents a very interesting and absolutely distinct array of flavors and tastes for the discerning buyer: rear wheel drive, all wheel drive, turbocharged, supercharged, raw straight-line acceleration, cornering prowess, Jaguar, Cadillac, Audi, Mercedes, BMW, the list goes on.
My point in this long post is that if you're going to disregard the GS F based on the "around 500 hp" spec, then I assume that with Cadillac now throwing the gauntlet at 640hp, everything else is "less than" as well. However, the reality is that BMW will continue to sell M5s, Mercedes will still move E63s, Audi will keep building and selling S6s and with a car like the GS F, Lexus will draw a whole new type of buyer - probably many of them from inside the brand - but probably also a handful who used to have modded GS 430s and left for an M5, or someone who is sick of AMG repair bills and is willing to give up some horsepower for reliability.
Congratulations to Cadillac for building one of the most powerful sedans on the planet -ever. Thank you to BMW and Mercedes who drove this segment for decades and made it what it is today. Kudos to Audi and Jaguar for jumping in and offering unique formulas that have appealed to their buyers and spiced up the segment. Welcome, Lexus, to the party. If you can't look at all of these cars and appreciate them for what they offer or represent - from 420 to 640 hp - then you're worse a fanboy than anyone.
However, since everyone is murdering the GS F based on fictional specs, lets take a quick look at the CTS V's competitive set:
Cadillac CTS V:
4,150 lbs
640hp/630 lb-ft of torque
0-60 in 3.7 seconds
HP-to-weight ratio: 6.5 lbs per hp
Audi S6:
4,398 lbs
420hp/406 lb-ft of torque
0-60 in 4.5 seconds (tested at 3.7)
HP-to-weight ratio: 10.5 lbs per hp
Audi RS7:
4,475 lbs
560hp/516 lb-ft of torque
0-60 in 3.7 seconds (tested at 3.4)
HP-to-weight ratio: 8 lbs per hp
BMW M5:
4,387 lbs
560 - 575hp/500 lb-ft of torque
0-60 in 4.2 seconds (tested at 3.7)
HP-to-weight ratio: 7.7 lbs per hp
Mercedes-Benz E63 AMG 4Matic
4,674 lbs
550hp/531 lb-ft of torque
0-60 in 3.6 seconds (tested at 4.0)
HP-to-weight ratio: 8.5 lbs per hp
Jaguar XFR-S
4,380 lbs
550 hp/502 lb-ft of torque
0-60 in 4.4 seconds
HP-to-weight ratio: 8 lbs per hp
Jaguar XFR
4,134 lbs
510 hp/ 461 lb-ft of torque
0-60 in 4.7 seconds (tested at 4.0)
HP-to-weight ratio: 8.1 lbs per hp
If you are a spec racer, the CTS V quite simply blows everything else out of the water. Period. Anyone spec racing these cars will list their M5s and E63s for sale TODAY and place an order for a CTS V. After all, why on earth would you buy a car with less horsepower than one that is available with as much as 640 hp? Fools!
However, in the real world, if you bought a CTS V, there's a very good chance that an 80hp less powerful M5 or 220hp less powerful S6 could keep up with you nose-to-nose from a dig. Don't try lining up with an RS7, as that Audi has been tested as low as 3.4 seconds 0-60. The Jaguar XFR-S's 4.4 second estimate for 0-60 has been called "conservative" by most magazines, and the "lowly 510hp" XFR has been clocked .7 seconds faster than the manufacturer's estimated time of 4.7 seconds. Do the math there, and the XFR-S could also be door-to-door with your CTS V early in a race, though the CTS V would surely start to walk away as the pavement opens up. Let's also not lose sight of the fact that Mercedes quotes the E63 AMG 4Matic's 0-60 time faster than what Cadillac quotes for the CTS V... interesting!
If this seems like a heavy dose of alphabet soup mixed in with senseless numbers, that's pretty much exactly what it is. The predominant thought process here and elsewhere seems to be that people who own an S6, XFR or XFR-S will be laughed out of Chilis on a Friday night because they could have bought something faster in an M5 or E63. The reality is that many of these actual buyers are looking for something that moves the needle a little further for their favorite brand, or an emotional design that appeals to their eye, or an overall experience/package that says, "Gotta have it."
The guy who bought his first A4 ten years ago, has been happily upgrading to A6s and just got the VP promotion and wants something a little more raw... He buys an S6. The guy who has had a few Jaguars but left the brand for Lexus or Mercedes sees something with some attitude and grit and comes back to Jag for an XFR. The guy who owned LSs for two decades, has been very happy with Lexus, just sent his last kid off to college and wants something with more performance and edge... he buys a GS F.
This is how people really buy these cars. They do not come into the BMW dealership, slap down the Cadillac CTS V press release on a sales manager's desk and demand that BMW buys back their M5 Competition Pack because it's no longer the fastest car on the block. They do not jump onto mbworld and trash talk the E63 4Matic the day that the CTS V comes out, same for bimmerfest and the M5.
I know it's a lot of fun to sit behind a computer screen and compare specs, but when you factor in real world buying decisions and you talk to actual buyers (even in this class of car), specs are not as important as we make them seem. A lot of it is emotional and about how the car looks, feels and sounds. What is the overall experience like? Sure, it's fast. From the driver's seat, an M5 or E63 or XFR or S6 all feel similarly "fast" and your average buyer doesn't bring performance equipment on a test drive, or make an excel chart of quoted/tested performance figures.
If anything, the list above represents a very interesting and absolutely distinct array of flavors and tastes for the discerning buyer: rear wheel drive, all wheel drive, turbocharged, supercharged, raw straight-line acceleration, cornering prowess, Jaguar, Cadillac, Audi, Mercedes, BMW, the list goes on.
My point in this long post is that if you're going to disregard the GS F based on the "around 500 hp" spec, then I assume that with Cadillac now throwing the gauntlet at 640hp, everything else is "less than" as well. However, the reality is that BMW will continue to sell M5s, Mercedes will still move E63s, Audi will keep building and selling S6s and with a car like the GS F, Lexus will draw a whole new type of buyer - probably many of them from inside the brand - but probably also a handful who used to have modded GS 430s and left for an M5, or someone who is sick of AMG repair bills and is willing to give up some horsepower for reliability.
Congratulations to Cadillac for building one of the most powerful sedans on the planet -ever. Thank you to BMW and Mercedes who drove this segment for decades and made it what it is today. Kudos to Audi and Jaguar for jumping in and offering unique formulas that have appealed to their buyers and spiced up the segment. Welcome, Lexus, to the party. If you can't look at all of these cars and appreciate them for what they offer or represent - from 420 to 640 hp - then you're worse a fanboy than anyone.
12-22-14, 08:33 AM
#568
Lead Lap
Porsche makes a killing selling SUVs because they're by far the cheapest way to get a Porsche badge. Even if the Macan couldn't outperform an X5 or an ML, you can bet it'd still sell like hotcakes simply because what it wears on the front. There's plenty of Macans near where I live, and personally four out of every five are driven by middle aged women, with children in the back. Not exactly the type that'll take the car to the track, or even use half of the available performance. That's not to say the Macan doesn't steer or drive well, it does, but the fact is that it wouldn't really make that much of a difference.
Personally, I think the idea of the Porsche SUV is wrong - speaking as a family who have owned a few Porsches over the years, I understand they're doing it to keep the VW beancounters happy, but to be honest, it dilutes the brand when they could be utilising their time/efforts on vehicles that are more worthy of the badge.
Personally, I think the idea of the Porsche SUV is wrong - speaking as a family who have owned a few Porsches over the years, I understand they're doing it to keep the VW beancounters happy, but to be honest, it dilutes the brand when they could be utilising their time/efforts on vehicles that are more worthy of the badge.
People don't care however if it can't handle; if it's got the propeller, or the 3 pointed star, it could be a glitter covered turd and they'd still buy it. Hence why Audi is so popular (and profitable) - people don't seem to care that they're paying a premium for what is an amalgamation of VW grade parts. Yet people don't seem to understand when Audi routinely rates lower than the other premium brands in the reliability/quality surveys, and suprisingly close to VW.
1) The majority of the Audi lineup actually now has no direct VW equivalent
2) Even though they do share parts with some VW's, their performance is equal/better than the competition in many key areas
3) Their quality ratings have actually risen to a level that's right near the competition. Your info is a bit outdated.
4) Your turd comment is a bit off- please look at sales of the original C-class coupe (hatchback, 3-series GT, 5-series GT, Lexus HS250h. For sure not an automatic sell.
considering how much mags dislike M5, i find it amusing how many people here are willing to dismiss GS-F without even knowing single thing about it.
Most special thing about M5 is that it gets easily beaten by "old" E63 in most of comparos, which is a first for BMW.
But hey, lets talk down GS-F without knowing a single thing about it, and lets play up M5 while knowing its not a great car.
Most special thing about M5 is that it gets easily beaten by "old" E63 in most of comparos, which is a first for BMW.
But hey, lets talk down GS-F without knowing a single thing about it, and lets play up M5 while knowing its not a great car.
12-22-14, 08:43 AM
#569
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I posted this in the CTS V thread but will post it here as I believe that it is just as relevant.
There are two factors at play here: 1) what people say who will only compare these cars through a computer screen and 2) what people think who actually have the ability and interest in buying them.
There are two factors at play here: 1) what people say who will only compare these cars through a computer screen and 2) what people think who actually have the ability and interest in buying them.
No, a worse fanboi is someone who sticks to one brand and never look outside of the box to see what else is being offered. Switching brand will drive competition, thus good for end users. If I buy only Lexus because I always buy Lexus, I would be like one of many Apple users. I don't care what else is being offered because I only shop one brand. This shouldn't be how competitive market works.
Edit: I rather Lexus make GS-F and fail, then they can go back to the drawing board and make a more competitive GS-F. If all of us just accept a mediocre GS-F because we like Lexus, what do you think it makes us?
Last edited by cino; 12-22-14 at 08:46 AM.
12-22-14, 09:34 AM
#570
Pole Position
The M5 with Competition Package (Option 7MA/ZCP) is exciting for me:
-adds an additional 15 HP (560 HP -> 575 HP)
-lowered suspension by 5 mm
-improved suspension geometry
-improved power steering
-improvement to the M Dynamic Mode (MDM)
Add Carbon Ceramic Brakes (Option 2NK) + BMW-Akrapovic M Performance Exhaust System and you get one hell of a vehicle.
-adds an additional 15 HP (560 HP -> 575 HP)
-lowered suspension by 5 mm
-improved suspension geometry
-improved power steering
-improvement to the M Dynamic Mode (MDM)
Add Carbon Ceramic Brakes (Option 2NK) + BMW-Akrapovic M Performance Exhaust System and you get one hell of a vehicle.
I sure do hope Lexus or Infiniti don't follow up on this crap cause its insulting. Much like shameful Porsche 911 add-ons.
Like I said I couldn't care less about GS-F or any performance branded midsize sedan cause they just don't make any sense except being the straight line rocket ships. Actually the only four door I would consider as a sports car is Evo X and quite possibly an STI.
What I am really looking forward here is the refreshed GS with 2.0t or 4 cylinder Hybrid setup.
