TRDFantasy

We have yet to even see this test car in motion. How do we even know those are the "right" tires? Maybe Lexus is test-fitting the rims, or testing the suspension set-up, who knows? If you look closely it seems like the car doesn't have front tires on, only the 2 rears.

TF109B

Why is everyone hung up on the 465hp number? I never saw Lexus say anything with that figure.

madfast

well wasnt the ISF just an IS with a V8? how revolutionary do you guys expect this car to be?

the M5's hp is definitely underrated, its physically larger than ever, and is the most expensive its ever been. yeah inflation affects the price but the point remains that everything is going up with that car. lexus will most likely not follow in their footsteps.

you guys are dreaming. lexus hasnt even launched their turbo 4 yet and you guys are expecting supercharged or twin turbo V8s...

spwolf

i dont think it is getting a supercharger anyway, but what does that have to do with anything? Toyota has long history with turbo's and actual turbines and made by 3rd party manufacturers.

madfast

if you havent noticed they have fallen way behind in the turbo game. and the direct injection game too. where companies like hyundai have turbo direct injection engines in even their cheap cars, toyota has none. they went all in on the hybrid game, and while they are the leaders in that space, they have let everyone else pass them by in key technologies like turbos, DI, dual clutches, AWD systems, active diffs/tq vectoring, etc.

so.... how do you guys expect them to whip out a twin turbo V8 when they havent even debuted a simple turbo 4?

natnut

Even the legendary Mark 4 Supra twin turbos were outsourced to a German company.

Doesn't anyone remember the monster Lexus LS650 with twin turbos putting down 650hp tuned by TMG ( Toyota Motorsport GmbH), the European tuning arm of Toyota?

See : http://www.carbuzz.com/news/2012/11/...Essen-7711553/

What's to say that they might not put a road-going version of that TT V8 into the GS-F?

Maybe downtuned to 600hp for emissions/fuel efficiency/reliability considerations?

Lexus management has gone on record that they want more input from their international branches. Won't be too surprising if the new GS-F gets a tuned Turbo V8 from TMG.

Like I said : TMG , Toyota's European arm, just put out a TT-V8 with 650hp in thr LS650. So yes, Toyota/Lexus take their own sweet time getting on board with new technology, but when they do, they GO ALL-IN and competitors better watch out.

I find it strange that you're dinging Toyota/Lexus for direct injection when the Lexus dual injection incorporating direct injection is the best in the the industry. All other companies are experiencing carbon build-up due to solely direct injection while the 2GR-FSE dual injection engine is rock solid reliable without carbon buildup issues. And the other companies can't follow Toyota's example since Toyota patented the dual injection system that it INVENTED.

Have you forgotten that Lexus is the first to incorporate rear wheel steering in their mainstream sedans as commonly available feature? The 4th Generation Lexus GS and the Japanese 3rd Generation IS get rear wheel steering as options.

I'll repeat : Toyota/Lexus take the long term view when incorporating new tech mainly due to ensuring long-term reliability of whatever new tech it puts into its cars. But when it does so : watch out world.

Examples? The TT inline 6 supra engine. The 2GR-FSE dual injection engine--winner of multiple Ward's engine awards and so good that it's been competitive for past 6 years and only now has BMW caught up with the N55 turbo inline 6 (and only after disastrous fuel pump problems with its previous turbo 3L engine).

madfast

that engine making it into the GSF has as much of a chance as the LFA V10. maybe im just jaded, but toyota has "let me down" too many times to be so optimistic. for instance, how can they use the same 3.5L V6 in the new IS? it makes no sense. they could have tuned it a tad to like 315 hp just to say its improved but they didnt. and yet im supposed to believe a V8 TT has a chance to be in the GSF? no way. we'd be lucky they tune the 5L V8 at all...

sorry to be so pessimistic, but im a realist i guess...

madfast

the LS650 is just a fun side project for TMG engineers. it has no impact on future models.

as for DI, only a few engines use the dual injection. yet simple DI is still something toyota hasnt adopted universally. hyundai has DI on almost every engine.

rear steer is nothing new. the mitsu 3000gt had it decades ago.

the 2GR-FSE is the perfect example of toyota resting on its laurels. when it first came out it was amazing. but they havent updated it since. in the meantime, everyone has caught up and now toyota is way behind. the VQ has VVEL and the N55 has valvetronic. what does toyota have? valvematic? on a corolla? they are way behind...

gengar

I'm OK with Lexus staying clear of direct injection-only engines (Lexus/Toyota only do direct injection in a hybrid system with port injection). Just look at the pictures of carbon buildup on direct injection engines - I really fear for their reliability and for now I've avoided considering buying cars powered with direct injection engines for that reason.

Lexus is going to be behind on some of these horsepower wars in the name of reliability and quality (and lately with the performance marque, even driving experience). We all knew that when we bought into the brand, and we can't have it both ways.

natnut

Why do we care if the rest of Toyota do not have direct injection when the cars we do own and the cars we're interested in-- Lexus RWD sedans--DO incorporate direct injection and the VERY best implementation of direct injection at that?

Current 2GR-FSE still kicks any non-V8 engine by Hyundai in terms of smoothness, power/weight ratio, reliability and ease of maintenance. And that's for a 6 year old engine.

Rear Steer was in the Datsuns and Mitsubishis and even the Toyota Aristo ( precursor to Lexus GS) but they were poorly implemented. In contrast, Lexus' latest Rear wheel steering (in combination with Lexus' VGRS and as part of the Lexus Dynamic Handling System like in the 4th Gen GS) has been praised as contributory to the sublime handling of the latest GS. Other companies may introduce the tech but seems like Toyota/Lexus perfected it.

There's a reason Toyota doesn't use solely direct injection like Hyundai like we previously stated : carbon buildup. It's expensive to use DUAL injection so that's why Toyota reserves it for its elite line of cars like the Lexus RWD sedans of IS,GS and LS. Why worry about rest of Toyota when we do get the direct injection (and more) in our Lexus cars?

rominl

iTrader: (4)

you must have forgotten the isf. lexus PLAYED the hp game very well. before they debut the car they said it's over 400hp without exact number, until right after bmw released the m3 numbers and then lexus came out with just a tad more hp than the m3. so yes, they know the importance.

at the same time, i don't necessarily think lexus needs to have 550hp on the gsf, but i still think over 500hp is worth it. it gives the bragging right, the chassis is more than good enough to handle it, and if it's a car to prove a point about lexus and sport than selling volume, why not? lexus will not sell a lot of these anyway (just like m and amg)

i doubt the gsf will gain crazy weight to over 4000lb, that means a very very heavy engine. the direction lexus goes is very right -- weight. and that's exactly how lexus impresses everyone with the lfa.

however when it comes to this segment, there is a little more than just slalom time.

lexus for sure is not following their footstep coz' the 4gs didn't increase in size. but i guess i still don't get the point or any evidence that the m5 and e63 is moving up half a step in the segment. if you look back to the history of cars, they have been getting bigger and bigger anyway. just look at the current camry vs the very first one. are you going to say the camry is actually an avalon now? that's what i don't get

i don't expect the gsf to have v10, but it's not revolutionary to expect the gsf to have more than 500hp either for it to succeed well. actually if emission is what they care, having a boosted high displacement engine seems to be better bank for the bucks. lexus current v6 lineup is very fuel efficient already imho, quite a bit ahead of competitions. i don't see why lexus needs to have a turbo 4 before they can have higher displacement setup. they have tons of talents and experience already. don't forget the 2jz-gte as one of the best engines ever made.

TRDFantasy

Well, you definitely ARE jaded not to mention narrow-minded.

I won't argue much with you, since you can't seem to see the forest for the trees here.

The 2GR-FSE came out in 2006. It was one of the FIRST V6 engines, and one of the FIRST gasoline engines in the WORLD to get direct injection. Not just any direction injection, but Toyota's patented D4-S dual injection system. The D4-S system prevents carbon build-up and engine reliability problems long-term, problems which EVERY OTHER direct injection system has! Even Toyota's OWN 4GR-FSE on some Lexus and JDM models has carbon build-up issues.

So use some common sense. The reason why Toyota hasn't made "regular" direct injection common is because of long-term reliability problems. Toyota's D4-S system though is EXPENSIVE, so that it why it's been mostly limited to higher-end Lexus models.

On that note, the FR-S has D4-S, which is AMAZING given how affordable the FR-S is.

The 2GR-FSE still remains as one of the BEST naturally aspirated non-turbo V6 engines out there. Toyota isn't rushing into turbos because they are developing a SUPERIOR implementation of turbos, and they don't want long-term reliability issues that ALL the companies that jumped into turbos recently have. BMW, Hyundai, Ford, they ALL have turbo issues on their new engines.

Despite all the bribed media hype and attention, all the brainwashing and guerilla marketing competitors have engaged in to make believers out of people like you, Toyota engines despite being criticized as "dated" still are near tops or at THE top in many cases for refinement, long-term reliability, power/torque curves, and overall performance.

Also, Toyota has technologies like VVT-iE, and yes Valvematic, which will soon become more widespread.

Natnut and gengar have said it best. I don't wish to repeat their words further.

If you don't know why Toyota does things the way that it does, then you aren't really a Toyota fan, and you should probably go visit Hyundai or Ford forums.

UpSideDown

They are lot of other cars that have rear wheel steering.


Acura RLX (P-AWS)
BMW 850CSi (only Euro spec models)
BMW 7-Series (2009 onward, part of sport package) [3]
BMW 5-series (2011 onwards, Integral Active Steering option)
Chevrolet Silverado (2002–2005) (high and low speed)
Efini MS-9 (high and low speed)
GMC Sierra (2002–2005) (high and low speed)
GMC Sierra Denali (2002–2004) (high and low speed)
Honda Prelude (high and low speed, mechanical from 1987 to 1991, computerized from 1992–2001)
Honda Accord (1991) (high and low speed, mechanical)
Honda Ascot Innova (1992) (high and low speed, computerized from 1992–1996)
Infiniti FX50 AWD (option on Sports package) (2008–Present) (high and low speed, fully electronic)
Infiniti G35 Sedan (option on Sport models) (2007–Present) (high speed only?)
Infiniti G35 Coupe (option on Sport models) (2006–Present) (high speed only)[4]
Infiniti J30t (touring package) (1993–1994)
Infiniti M35 (option on Sport models) (2006–Present) (high speed only?)
Infiniti M45 (option on Sport models) (2006–Present) (high speed only?)
Infiniti Q45t (1989–1994) (high speed only?)
Lexus GS (2013 onwards, if equipped with optional Lexus Dynamic Handling)
Mazda 929 (1992–1995)(computerised, high and low speed)(all models)
Mazda 626 (1988) (high and low speed)
Mazda MX-6 (1989–1997) (high and low speed)
Mazda RX-7 (optional, computerized, high and low speed)
Mazda Eunos 800 (1996–2003) (Optional, computerized, high and low speed)
Mercedes-Benz Vito (London Taxi variant)
Mitsubishi Galant/Sigma (high speed only)
Mitsubishi GTO (also sold as the Mitsubishi 3000GT and the Dodge Stealth) (Mechanical) (high speed only)
Nissan Cefiro (A31) (high speed only)
Nissan 180SX (HICAS option)
Nissan 240SX/Silvia (option on SE models) (high speed only)
Nissan 300ZX (all Twin-Turbo Z32 models) (high speed only)
Nissan Laurel (later versions) (high speed only)
Nissan Fuga/Infiniti M (high speed only)
Nissan Silvia (option on all S13 models) (high speed only)
Nissan Skyline GTS, GTS-R, GTS-X (1986) (high speed only)
Nissan Skyline GT-R (high and low speed)
Porsche 991 GT3 (high and low speed)
Porsche 991 Turbo (2014 onward) (high and low speed) [5]
Renault Laguna (only in GT version of 3rd generation which was launched October 2007, GT launched on April 2008)
Subaru Alcyone SVX JDM (1991–1996) (Japanese version: "L-CDX" only) (high speed only)
Toyota Aristo (1997) (high and low speed?)
Toyota Camry / Vista JDM 1988–1999 (Optional) [6]
Toyota Carina ED / Toyota Corona EXiV (world's first dual-mode switchable 2WS to 4WS)
Toyota Celica (option on 5th and 6th generation, 1990–1993 ST183 and 1994–1997 ST203) (Dual-mode, high and low speed)
Toyota Soarer (UZZ32)

SteVTEC

I personally give Toyota a PASS on their 2GR-FSE. No it's no longer the most powerful or fuel efficient engine out there, but it is RELIABLE and yes it won't have the potential for carbon build-up that DI only engines have been prone to because of its unique DUAL injection system. Somebody at the office here has an IS250 with the DI-only engine (4GR-FSE?) and had to get it rebuilt by Lexus due to carbon build-up problems. Heck my N55 is DI only and while most of them have seemed ok so far, who knows? I don't think Lexus needs a turbocharged V6, but they ought to at least update it or do something with it. Nothing wrong with it from a technical standpoint, just no longer the latest or the best and is simply a bit "stale" from a marketing standpoint.

As far as the GS-F, I certainly don't think it needs to have 500+ HP to match the M5, and also don't think the car is a "non-starter" unless it has at least that much. Hardly. I'm the type of person where if I can't truly enjoy ALL that I've paid for, I'm going to be let down and get bored and frustrated. I could enjoy 400-450hp a bit more often than I could enjoy 550hp in the M5, which would be once in a blue moon for 400-450hp as opposed to NOT AT ALL in an M5. I have enough trouble trying to find the time and space to enjoy 300hp in my 335i. I know it works for many people, but having tons and tons of power just doesn't sell me. Friends ask me why I haven't chipped my 335 yet. Dude, I can't even enjoy the power I've got, what the heck would I do with more?

IF and when a GS-F comes out, I would definitely consider one, and it definitely wouldn't need to have as much power as an M5 nor would I want it to. Of course I'd expect it to be significantly cheaper than an M5, and more reliable too. Biggest appeal of a GS-F for me is simply the fact that it has a V8, and the nice rumble they make with a mild aftermarket exhaust setup. I didn't see it first, but rather HEARD an IS-F the other day with some mods. Oh man, that was sweet. Literally music to my ears.

LexFather

Audi S cars have been well received against proper amg/m cars down 100hp or so. There is more to a car than peak jp. AMG cars are making so much power now they are becoming AWD to keep the power to the ground but that means more weight and complexity.

This is not getting a new engine just a tweaked 5.0 V8.

AMG, M nor S/RS wasn't built in a day. So to hell what people think, as a Lexus enthusiast this is great to see finally coming to light.