Joeb427

iTrader: (1)

Horsepower numbers seem to be rising and getting better MPGs.
Toyota dropped the ball coming out with a new generation GS and going with the engine and HP of the '06 IS350.

mmarshall

No, I didn't get it wrong....at least not IMO. I've test-driven all three. The new Impala clearly competes more with the Avalon than the LaCrosse does. The LaCrosse, especially the V6 version, is more in Lexus ES350 territory. That, of course, doesn't negate the fact that the Impala and LaCrosse come from the same platform (just as the ES350 and Camry also derive from a shared platform), but the LaCrosse has a more ornate interior than the Impala, and also the AWD option that the Impala lacks.

What is interesting, though, is that, for several reaasons, the new Avalon, IMO, today, can now compete with its own ES350 cousin.....something that past Avalons generally couldn't do with past ES models.

mmarshall

Sure. Anytime.

Test-drive the V6 version and I don't think you will find its road-manners bland. It's not a sports car, but its chassis is noticeably better than past Impalas. And, IMO even more important, it combines relative comfort with those road manners.

Top-levels of the Impala (2LTZ), with options, themselves can run at or near 40K, which gives them an almost-premium price. But you seem to get what you pay for.

mmarshall

Remember, though, that, all else equal, lower weight in a car means better performance, handling, and braking, even with the same horsepower. The less the engine is worked, the faster the car will accelerate.

That doesn't mean, though, that I myself am a fan of overly-light cars.....I'm generally not. I usually like lots of sound-insulation (which adds weight), a smooth ride (which also often requires weight over the suspension), tracking-stability (which front-end weight often helps), and some mass/weight in the car for safety and crash-performance.

Also, remember that torque (especially at low RPMs), not HP, is the main figure in determining acceleration. HP is more important for determining the car's potential top-speed and in overcoming air-resistance.

Toys4RJill

Actually you are completely wrong, the Avalon starts are $3000 MSRP more than a Impala. Impala has never been an Avalon competitor, look up the history about Buick, there was a vehicle called the Park Avenue, the Avalon was modeled after that vehicle.

As for the Lacrosse, it has very similar MSRP as the Avalon, the ES350 starts at almost $5000 more than the Lacrosse. The Lacrosse competes with the Avalon.

Now as for Buick, keep in mind that Buick not a luxury car, nor is it a luxury nameplate.

mmarshall

Fine...we can disagree, and probably will. But drive a new V6 Impala and I think you will be impressed. You may not feel that the Impala could credibly compete with an Avalon in the past (and, many times, that's correct.....it couldn't). But I'm talking conditions now, not 5-10 years ago.

I know Buick history well, BTW. For a number of years, it was my favorite domestic nameplate, although its vehicle-quality, like that of some other GM divisions, was clearly second-rate from the late 1970s up to just a few years ago.

And, in the past, the ES's extra $5000 price-tag over the LaCrosse was probably justified. Not, IMO, with the present ES, which, to me, is a disappointment. And the ES still doesn't offer AWD like the Lacrosse....but then again, neither does the Impala.

Joeb427

iTrader: (1)

and they'll be about the same around $41K list loaded with adaptive cruise,lane departure etc.

mmarshall

Well, I say the same thing I've (respectfully) told others here....drive a new Impala and see for yourself what you think of its road manners and overall execution.

As for the new Avalon, I'd rate its interior-trim a little better than the Impala's, but the Impala's road-manners, IMO, are hard to beat for the price. Its ride/handling/steering balance is superb.

LexBob2

The lines are so blurred between models these days, there's no reason to think that Impala, Avalon, LaCrosse, ES350, Lincoln MKZ etc. aren't cross shopped to a certain extent.

Joeb427

iTrader: (1)

I sat in a LTZ model and can agree with you without a test ride.
The LTZ loaded model is the Chevy flagship that will be cross shopped with the Avalon,IMO.

Aron9000

All of you are splitting hairs here. If you're looking for a large sedan at about 35-40k, that's right where the Avalon, LaCrosse, Chrysler 300, Dodge Charger, Impala, Taurus, and Hyundia Genesis play at. They will all be crossed shopped, except maybe the Lexus ES350, because those are more like 40-50k and way overpriced IMO.

Personally all of them are kind of lame except the Chrysler 300 and Charger if you really want a "big" car. I'll give Chrysler co some props for actually taking a risk on the styling of these two cars, they do have character.

mmarshall

Agreed.....though the MKZ and ES350 are in a slightly higher price-class. And, I didn't care for either of them as much as for the Avalon or Impala, though I think they stiffened the Avalon's ride too much this year.

mmarshall

I see it as apples and oranges, to some extent. The Genesis, Charger, and Chrysler 300 are different RWD platforms from the FWD Azera, Impala, LaCrosse, ES350, and Avalon. And the 300/Charger is generally aimed at a different (and more sporting) type of buyer from that of the FWD cars. The RWD Impala SS and its Holden-derived platform, when it arrives, will obviously be better competition for the 300/Charger than the FWD Impala.

Toys4RJill

And Lacrosse still does not offer a standard V6 or a optional hybrid.

Just more facts as to why the Lacrosse does not compete in the ES segment.

The ES is luxury car, the Buick is a premium car. The Imapala is a mainstream car that has never EVER competed with the Avalon, the Avalon has always been a Buick competitor.

Toys4RJill

Again, you are completely wrong.

If you go to Chevrolet.com and select Impala do a compare, the Chevrolet would like you to believe that the Impala competes with the Tauras, 300, and the Maxima. This is stated right on their website. You don't even have to select it, Chevrolet does it for you.