GS350 vs the Lexus ES350 . . . .
04-04-13, 03:16 PM
#46
Lexus Fanatic
My point stands, it's still just one aspect of the vehicle -- the hand (or grade) of some of the plastics used -- that covers your entire complaint. Obviously this is huge for you, and understandably if you're a former owner where this aspect of the ES exceeded your expectations. But, it's still just one area.
I assumed you checked out the steering wheel. It's a huge improvement over the previous gen and is the now same one found in the GS/LS (like the corporate grill, the new corporate steering wheel). What about the headliner material which is considerably nicer/softer and actually runs all the way down to the top of the beltline of the A/B pillars. Additionally, the quality of the wood trim is a step up and much more convincing than the one it replaces. Another interior improvement-- having uniform lighting color across the board, whereas before there was a mix of some LCDs in old-school green, while others in white, the list goes on...
The ES has always had fabric covering the A/B/C pillars all the way down to the belt line, my 03 had it as did my 2010. Headliner material is the same as it was on my 2010, which is very nice. Wood trim quality is nice, but I wouldn't say its any better than what the ES has had previously.
As for uniform lighting, both my 2003 and 2010 had uniform lighting throughout, green for the dash and obviously the optitron white for the gauges. I do prefer the new blueish dash lighting.
The previous generation ES you had bore a remarkable amount of space in the dashboard that was a vast landscape of nothing but vinyl/rubber.
As I noted in my previous post these will most likely reappear in a refresh, as is typical for all automakers when releasing new models-- de-content until a refresh, where the "new" perks will serve as incentives.
04-05-13, 12:30 AM
#47
and this from someone who works at a lexus dealer. 
es is really that bad? i've not sat in one. from all the pics i've seen though, yeah, it seems like a lot more hard plastic and simple textures/areas than say, the gs. in the end it's all about cost and price point. the es is the lexus volume seller and like the cheaper volume toyota, the camry, they're plenty 'good enough' for their intended buyer, who is in no way as discriminating as you.
es is really that bad? i've not sat in one. from all the pics i've seen though, yeah, it seems like a lot more hard plastic and simple textures/areas than say, the gs. in the end it's all about cost and price point. the es is the lexus volume seller and like the cheaper volume toyota, the camry, they're plenty 'good enough' for their intended buyer, who is in no way as discriminating as you.
I find the ES vs GS arguments to be grounded in separate universes, particularly if the hybrid option is specified. While the provincialism of the conversation is not surprising, it led me to visit the Lexus.com site and build a GS somewhat comparable to my '13 ES300h. My moderately equipped ES bore a MSRP of $45K, $15K less than a base GS hybrid. As the GS lacks a diverse menu of individual options, the least expensive package which included NAV and a few other features boosted the MSRP to $70K! Personal finance is not what inhibited me from cross shopping these vehicles; the better value was to save roughly $25K and score better fuel efficiency. I did not even waste the opportunity of a GS test drive.
I can live very well with a bit more plastic content, a trifle more wind noise, and the banal Buick jokes!
I can live very well with a bit more plastic content, a trifle more wind noise, and the banal Buick jokes!
I think from a pure quality and build quality standpoint the ES reached its peak between 2002-2006. I felt like the 2007 ES was a huge step down from the 2006 model, and felt that they made some of that up in 2010 with the additional wood and metal trim on the inside and chrome on the outside. I really liked my 2010 ES, much better looking than the 2003 I had before (which is still in the family), drove better, rode better, a little sportier, but interior quality was still a downgrade from the '03. In fact I chose the Parchment interior over black to help hide some of the poor quality plastics.
The 2013 has better space, and I think the design of the interior is an improvement, but from an execution standpoint material quality is a downgrade yet again from the 2012.
The 2013 has better space, and I think the design of the interior is an improvement, but from an execution standpoint material quality is a downgrade yet again from the 2012.
04-05-13, 08:52 PM
#48
Pole Position
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The ES serves a great niche for the conservative executive class, grandmas, real estate agents, people who don't care about having fun in a car, or people who want a luxury ride without making a huge statement or standing out. The ES is smart, affordable luxury and sells very well to these people.
The GS on the other hand is in a whole different bracket, appealing to a different type of buyer. I believe each model is needed.
The GS on the other hand is in a whole different bracket, appealing to a different type of buyer. I believe each model is needed.
04-05-13, 08:59 PM
#49
Lexus Fanatic
I'm absolutely not one of those people who thinks Lexus should cancel the ES. Its their best selling car for God's sake, they sell 7k a month. I just want to see the ES lead its class again.
04-05-13, 10:16 PM
#50
Lexus Test Driver
04-06-13, 11:07 AM
#51
Lexus Fanatic
If the 2013 ES and the Avalon were both Toyotas...or both Lexuses I think the Avalon would way outsell the ES. I don't feel like that was the case with the previous generations.
04-06-13, 11:20 AM
#52
Super Moderator
I think the cost cutting/cheapening of materials for the newest generation ES might have something to do with the still high yen vs. USD exchange rate as well, that affects the profitability of Japanese manufactured models selling in USA, and the ES 's primary target is the USA.
Years ago, the Yen used to be much weaker than it is now even though the Yen has dropped quite a bit since last year. The Avalon OTOH is manufatured in the US and are not affected by the exchange rate.
Years ago, the Yen used to be much weaker than it is now even though the Yen has dropped quite a bit since last year. The Avalon OTOH is manufatured in the US and are not affected by the exchange rate.
04-06-13, 11:22 AM
#53
Lexus Fanatic
I'm sure it does, but they should have explored building them here before they decided to decimate the quality of the materials, when product quality is the brand's claim to fame.
04-06-13, 12:50 PM
#54
Lexus Champion
If you ask the question, is the quality of the interior in the new gen ES effecting sales? The answer is NO. NA March sales = 6,798 +116% and YTD = 16,801 +97%.
This is an area that can quickly be improved in the mid cycle refresh, much like with the 2010 model year, or if public opinion and a slowdown in sales forces the Lexus division to make changes. Time will tell.
This is an area that can quickly be improved in the mid cycle refresh, much like with the 2010 model year, or if public opinion and a slowdown in sales forces the Lexus division to make changes. Time will tell.
04-06-13, 02:17 PM
#55
Lexus Fanatic
No, its not affecting sales, but GM sold a lot of vehicles with terrible quality for a long time...
IMHO Toyota has been making a pretty crappy product for the last, oh, 7-8 years or so. Now I see that moving into the Lexus lineup. They might be selling well now, but there are competitors that are now selling a product that is on the whole higher quality than Toyota's IMHO, in fact...I cannot think of one Toyota product that I would buy. Not one. I don't want to see that happen at Lexus, whether they are selling or not.
IMHO Toyota has been making a pretty crappy product for the last, oh, 7-8 years or so. Now I see that moving into the Lexus lineup. They might be selling well now, but there are competitors that are now selling a product that is on the whole higher quality than Toyota's IMHO, in fact...I cannot think of one Toyota product that I would buy. Not one. I don't want to see that happen at Lexus, whether they are selling or not.
Goal of any firm is to make money, not to make customer happy.
04-06-13, 05:18 PM
#57
Lexus Fanatic
Firms that have a long term view understand that making customers happy makes them more money than focusing solely on making money.
04-06-13, 06:06 PM
#58
04-06-13, 06:21 PM
#59
Lexus Champion
Or, you can argue that Toyota and the Lexus division are often critiqued for being too conservative and slow to react to trends, fads etc. This could refect a long term view to make money and customers happy.
04-06-13, 06:27 PM
#60
Lexus Fanatic