rominl

iTrader: (4)

so you are saying lexus is once again trying to explore a whole new market rather than trying to take buyers away from m5 and e63?

i am sure we will see but i am not sure if it's a great move, it sounds like a lot of work for really not much again. sure the s6 is beating m5 in some comparo, but how is s6 selling again vs m5 and e63?

in this league, it's not really about just performance imho (and i am not saying this because m5 lost). most owners never even come close to putting their cars at the limits. it has a lot to do with bragging rights and the status.

Blackraven

^^^This

Ultimately, you have to appeal to egos as well as emotions

If you want to convince your typical M5 and RS6 buyers to purchase a GS-F, then you're gonna need to come close to every considerable aspect to the vehicles that they own.

The IS-F did not have a problem facing against a BMW M3. It was a worthy rival to the M3. Heck, I think the ISF has slightly more horsepower and torque than the M3.

Hence, I cannot see why Lexus cannot do the same for the GS-F.

In fact, I think that's the only way to make your target segment listen to you.

>500 HP OR BUST

dmvp29

I know this is a common saying but it isn't actually true. Horsepower and Torque are related to each other via RPM.

dmvp29

The real nuance comes from the fact that people routinely mention peak HP, when in reality straight line performance is determined by the area under the (dyno) curve.

That's why the relationship between peak HP (at a fixed weight) and straight line acceleration is always a little shaky.

Hoovey689

iTrader: (16)

No? I would love for Lexus to come out with a 500-550hp GS-F, but the odds are incredibly against that. Lexus and Toyota don't play the hp wars like the others do. Different market? No, it's the same market save for the rumormill'd 461hp is circa 2008 when it comes to the competition.

Not sure I follow. Are you saying there shouldn't be a GS-F? I don't have any sales figures on the S6, M5, or E63, but I can say these cars aren't meant for volume. Did the LFA make a business sense? Hell no, but it was pivotal in the roll of furthering Lexus into the future of the industry.

I agree unless it's a comparison its not about performance, and that even owners of 300hp cars don't push their car to the limit. Bragging rights sure, but as I mentioned above, Lexus has never been one to brag how "powerful" their cars are. No, they will do their homework on the GS-F and make it the best overall car in its segment or the most well rounded with respect to power, tech, drive dynamics, safety, and fuel economy.

Do I want a 500hp GS-F? Of course. But I'm also a realist and insiders point to it having 461hp. So let's be thankful it's coming. Adding power is easy, and something best left for when a refresh is needed on the car.

Not even close. M3 owners should never run an IS-F on a roll.

IS-F....416hp 371lbft
M3......414hp 298lbft

Blackraven

Wow, I knew the IS-F had the upper-hand in HP and torque ratings............but that huge a lead, wow I'm surprised. Heck, I'm damned myself.

With that said, this is exactly the same reason why the GS-F needs to step up in the numbers game. Lexus did it with the IS-F and it made BMW listen and in a way, it probably made a few BMW M engineers feel uneasy.

With that said:
Some others though would want a GS-F with power figures that would completely massacre and mutilate the M5 with its 560 HP and 502 lb ft (680 Nm) of torque.......or any of its competitors.

If Lexus has the technology, knowledge, skills and capability to make that happen (which I personally believe they do), then why not. Go for it and strike fear into your competitors.

But if they cannot, then I would be glad with just 500 HP.

rominl

iTrader: (4)

please don't even try to put the lfa sales into this comparison, those are two markets, two different cars, completely apple to orange. it doesn't even compare at all. the lfa is a halo car, the gsf is not, far from. gsf is close to isf, not lfa. if compare, compare to isf.

lexus don't play the hp game? i am not sure about that. when they released the isf, they initially claimed "over 400hp" and never stated the hp number until right after bmw released the 414hp. so yes, lexus played the hp game on the isf since day one. imho it's not a bad thing. imagine if the isf has 380hp, a much tougher battle trying to sell that car.

to be honest, and it's my opinion, if they don't make a gsf with over 500hp, might as well not do it. it's a known fact that this is a very tight / small / competitive market and clearly lexus is trying to take a scoop away. and with a car that's almost 100hp short? i am just saying it's very tough and i will be disappointed.

i am sure lexus will make a great car, i always think the isf is very awesome for what it is given lexus first try. but so far what i have heard rumor on the gsf? well...

i cannot agree on we should just be "thankful something is coming". if they are to do it, do it right, otherwise they shoot themselves in the foot before the game starts.

regarding the power numbers, do we need to again get back to the actual available tq at the wheels? people are stuck so bad with numbers on paper and say m3 doesn't have torque. let's try 2nd gear from 6000rpm all the way to over 8000rpm when isf can't even go that high. i am not saying m3 is faster, but we should stop just talking about paper numbers.

one last thought i have. isf is competitive to m3 on a lot of things including hp numbers, track numbers, etc... someone mentioned lexus sold 11k isf world wild since debut. bmw sold around 40k m3 by mid 2011, i didn't bother looking for the numbers since then.

again i think isf did great for lexus on introducing sports, but the skew is there. and if they are trying to introduce a gsf that loses out on the hp numbers right off the bet? i am just saying it way too tough. like you said, you and i both want a good 500+hp gsf, but i think the difference is i am afraid lexus might not be able to put up with the f-line with such a car

rominl

iTrader: (4)

formula one has 500+hp and "only" around 270tq, but what, 20k redline?

lfa has 550hp and again "only" 354tq (less than isf so to speak), you don't want to doubt how that car accelerates. what is the redline again? 9k rpm.

don't be fooled by spec on paper. high rev NA setup always has "lower" tq numbers, area under the tq curve tells the story

Hoovey689

iTrader: (16)

We're not talking about LFA sales numbers. Were talking about the car and a business sense. Toyota lost money on every single one. That is not a business case unless you are a major corporation that can fund a loss like that. Suffice to say the LFA was needed because as a halo it reinvigorated a brand. Not sure where you got "sales" when the only mention of the LFA was a business case.

The IS-F is just one example. Until any powertrain's come out, the 2.5 V6, 3.5 non DI V6, GX 4.6 V8, LS 4.6 V8, 5.7 V8 are all far behind the competition. Just look at the LS vs It's competition:

Audi A8 4.0T 420hp 444lbft
MBZ S550 4.6T 429hp 515lbft
BMW 750i 4.4T 445hp 480lbft
Lexus LS460 4.6 NA 386hp 367lbft

And for the record, I have never said I'm opposed to Lexus having competition beating numbers. I've been saying it's not likely when the products do come to fruition. (I would love for Lexus to prove me wrong)

Did they do the GS right? Absolutely. The car is in every way better than the 3GS it replaces, from tech, space, efficiency, safety, innovation the list goes on. I have every faith that the GS-F will perform admirably. When it comes to power numbers, unless it's a new powertrain or forced induction set-up, it's doubtful the 5.0 will yield the numbers we want. Especially with Lexus on a fuel efficiency rampage. One strong suit of the IS-F is that is avoided the Gas Guzzler tax.

No I'd rather not get into lbft lol

Like the LFA, the IS-F was a bit of a wild card and as it turns out, a much needed addition to the Lexus line. I guess the biggest thing, is the waiting game. If we just knew if the GS-F was NA or FI we could speculate more accurately the hp which is at the very least 461hp on up to 550hp or somewhere in-between

natnut

Just to throw it out there.

The JDM Toyota Crown Athlete which is derived from the 4th Gen GS and shares the 2.5L and 3.5L DI engines with the GS250/GS350 as well as the same hybrid engine as the GS450h has TWO additional engine options not found in the GS.

3.5 L 2GR-FSE V6 Supercharged (Athlete) (4WD) 380HP
4.6 L 1UR-FSE V8< BiTurbo (4WD)(TRD) 565HP

Both cars have for all intents and purposes the same engine bay and drivetrain. There is no technical reason the supercharged 3.5L V6 and Biturbo V8 can't be made to fit the GS body.

rominl

iTrader: (4)

first my apology on the lfa sales, as a business case yes the lfa as halo car is nothing but awesome, it proves more than a few points. but i think we will disagree that the gsf will be a different case, where i don't think the car can be used to prove points the way lfa does

regarding the lineup, i think lexus is behind now, but if we roll back to 2007 time frame, actually the 3.5l v6 and 4.6l v8 were both extremely competitive (even surpassed competitions in various cases). that's also the time frame isf came out, so lexus most definitely care(d) about hp.

i put it in past tense because i am not sure about now. whether they are playing the engine update game again, or if they are trying to get out of it. if they are, i can only say they are making a pretty weak case, because only the 3.5l v6 is still somewhat competitive.

the 4gs is a huge step up from 3gs (how can i not know, i had the 3gs), but i think if we throw enthusiast into the equation, almost everyone agrees that the car can use more power. and with further aggressive tuning, i really don't see how 460hp is a limiting factor

so that does put us on the same page where engine configuration is the limitation. given their time frame and choices, they can't make much of it except the 5.0l v8 (and i don't think they want to touch any blowers yet). i absolutely agree on that limitation. but at the same time i am not sure if i buy into that as good enough product planning. the gsf can't be an idea overnight (if so, poor job on lexus), they should be able to find the "right" setup

i will say the 460 figured had hit me since a while ago and that's why i have kept such a strong opinion about it. as much as i agree lexus is overdue for a gsf, i think this is going to be a hard care. i know plenty of friends who are in this segment (and they own/owned lexus), but for less than 500hp, the gsf simply quickly fall out of their radar.

we can only pray, and i know very well i am losing the battle on wishing for 500+hp. but we will see when the car is here, and most importantly outside of clublexus. i know a lot of m3 and c63 owners they actually respect the isf, i definitely want to see how m5 and e63 owners think (personally i don't really care much about magazines anymore even since bmw's glory days)

rominl

iTrader: (4)

i didn't want to bring up jdm cases because they always seem to be more open minded and daring in their own markets. but you have exactly illustrated my worry of how they make the decision.

although crown is under the toyota badge, the car can be just about as luxurious as a lexus in my eyes. and for FI, i have all faith on toyota, any day

imagine that v8 biturbo, gosh i god goose bumps just thinking about it. it's going to be so awesome

spwolf

those are TRD options, sold separately, right? Not factory ones... Toyota sold cheaper version to Lotus but never put it into their Lexus cars... there is probably a reason for that.

flipside909

What a Lexus GS F may look like.

k3vo

Canadian Trademark Application No. 1618394 filed March 15, 2013 by Toyota Motor Corporation for GS F.

Thank goodness!

Still no RC F