natnut

I wonder how much of that mysterious "BMW feel" that its fans rave about in its current models (despite the objective handling data) has more to do with the roundel on its bonnet.

It would be an interesting exercise if a 4GS and a BMW 3/5 series were completely debadged and a BMW fanboy were to test-drive all 3 cars back-to-back not knowing which car he drove. Would he be able to tell that special feel came from which car?

Because the current 3 and 5 series drive nothing like the past 3 and 5 series of old. I'd say that the new 4GS drives more "BMW" than the current BMW sedans.

trexlexus

The "placebo effect" would definately be interesting when it comes to cars. However, I think it would be insanely difficult. Even after debadging, some people can still recognize dashboards/interior designs under wraps.

Nonetheless, I would still like to someday see a placebo effect for driving feel to really measure how good a car is compared to another.

mmarshall

I test-drive a lot of cars, and, although I admittedly haven't tried some of the very latest BMWs, I can definitely say that, up to now, the BMW feel was real. It was not people's imagination....or just that blue-and-white logo on the hood (bonnet). That's one reason why BMWs won so many auto-comparisons in magazines.

However, that doesn't necessarily make me a BMW fanboy, or will put a BMW in my parking-space. For several reasons, they are not the cars for me.

KevinGS

"Objective handling data" is all in the numbers. On paper, a GTR (and a Vette) can often produce better handling numbers than a basic 911. But, in real world driving, you likely feel more confident throwing that nimble 911 into a blind corner than that 'better handling' GTR or Vette. Skidpad and slalom data are great, but out on the open roads....especially public roads where ANYthing could be around the next corner, you want a car that you feel completely connected to. That connection is what makes you get the most out of the car. Otherwise they're just numbers on a peice of paper, that you could only hope to attain while running it on a closed course.

And yes, the new 3 drives differently than the old 3, but it still retains enough suspension compliance and handling capabilities that inspires utter confidence when throwing it into a turn or a bend, and it's easier to carry it through the desired arc.

Lexus is catching up, so is Infiniti for that matter. Hec, some of Acura's models have a better steering-handling-compliance combo than Lexus models. Acura's steering is quite precise yet still benign, and it helps make the car completely tossable (though Ac's steering can be a little nervous too). Yet I thought the Acura TL SH models felt better than the smaller 2IS when it came to pure confidence in the handling department.

And again, the 4GS handles great, almost too good for its intended purpose. I love it myself, but I don't think they're going to sell too many with the current suspension setup. There's way more middle-aged men & women who just want to get from point A to point B in style and luxury, and the new GS is pushing the envelope of sportiness, even in a non-F stock setup. But I applaud Lexus for the effort, which is giving me high hopes with the 3IS. Yet as good as the 4GS suspension is for aggressive driving, it doesn't feel like a BMW, not at all. And that's not completely a bad thing.

But make no mistake about it, everyone is still trying to find that magic suspension potion for their mainstream sedans and coupes that BMW had in their 2000 - 2010 models (3 and 5 series)....BMW is too. Sometimes the "relentless pursuit of perfection" steers companies off course, just ask BMW.

TRDFantasy

Your reply is missing more "LOL" comments and emoticons .

This is a LEXUS forum, the BMW forums are that way. Feeling butthurt that the 4GS performs better than an equivalent 5 Series? Well the truth hurts sometimes.

webra

Having driven the 4GS in all its versions, and the 3GS, ISF, E63, 135i on the track hard, I agree the GS has brought Lexus up to a new level. Very close, in fact, to some of the best. I don't think it's quite there yet, mainly because they still need to keep the Lexus feel, however sporty they chose to go. Where they have the Germans wiped out is in the area of interior design, sheer build quality and longevity. Owning a German and a Lexus in the same garage has proved this beyond any doubt for me. I have also driven the new M5 and M6 in auto cross events, as well as the M135i which is not available in the USA, which is my current favourite German to drive. But if I were to spend my own money, then it won't be on a German till they solve the 'cost to keep running after warrantee expires issue'. Where I like the Lexus to consider is to retain the classiness of the look in F sport models, both in the 4GS and the 3IS. And I do miss the terrific engine refinement of the previous gen Lexus. I don't care much for the sound generators, which I also removed from my bmw's. I did think it was a feat to have the 350 F sport handle feeling it was the size of a 135i though. The 4ws really works.

KevinGS

I 100% agree.

I have owned 3 Lexuses, and it's mainly because of "interior design, sheer build quality and longevity". But I will likely lease a Porsche or an M3 for 2 or 3 years, just to get the German driving experience out of my system. I just love how well Porsches and M3s drive on public roads....completely confident, exhilirating and tossable, and the cars are right-sized.

But I will be back to Lexus for sure, and I will purchase the Lexus....and will mod it and then drive it 'til it drops.

Lexus is catching up....but overall, the German (and Italian) driving experience is still different from the Japanese and American driving experiences. The new Caddy ATS handles superbly, actually feeling better than the new 3 series. I couldn't upset the chassis at all, and I threw it around like a rag doll. But it needs a better engine. And the interior is still a little too stark and dark for my tastes.

BMW's very slim margin of being "the ultimate driving machine" is basically gone as we move through 2013. And I love the competetion!

LexFather

Let me share my 2 cents (which after 67k posts means I should be worth a couple mill lol)

1. Don't get caught up in the thread title too much. It is to grab attention BUT do realize his title is not the first time it has been stated. Even long time BMW customers have said the same.

2. CDNRockies is a great guy. He's owned an IS F and he's pretty fair and balanced. I think what he's saying is while Lexus maybe be better in a category or two, overall BMW still is sportier.

3. Brands have all moved to the middle. This is not the 1990s where BMW was sport, Benz/Lexus was luxury and Audi was barely selling. Today, Benz, Lexus have gotten tons sportier, Audi is a serious contender and BMW has gotten softer.

4. I completely disagree with Mr. Burns who stated it doesn't matter who is sportiest. It does matter, EVEN IF YOU DON'T DRIVE THAT WAY. People want the image and want to know the car they own is sporty/sportiest. Here is a case where the masses still don't question the 5 as sportiest in class. This is a marketing course example. BMW has proven for decades to people they are sportiest so people make that assumption no matter what. They want to be associated with the sportiest brand. Only the few die-hards would notice or care about the difference. Contrarily Lexus has the sportiest car in the GS but b/c Lexus is still known for luxury it seems the GS is in a lost space right now. Lexus has not done a great job SHOUTING "hey this GS does not drive like what you think a Lexus drives like".

5. Lexus has REALLY DROPPED THE BALL relaying the message of how good the GS is. Up to this point they haven't really explained how the GS is the best handling or sportiest. THey show the car sliding and driving fast but hell all car ads do that. This (ith AMCI) is a more aggressive attempt with TANGIBLE results to shows "hey this Lexus GS is a better driver than a 5"

6. Look we know the 5 offers the V-8 and the M5. Since when did more power mean sportier? It means more power. Clearly no GS can hang with one of those on the track overall due to it being down 100-250hp. But if you compare those cars to its competiton, well the 5 hasn't fared well. The Panamera GTS was just chosen over the M5. The M5 has been called out in every review for being a great overall vehicle but not the hardcore sport sedan it was once.

7. BMW has no answer for the LFA. Deal with it.

8. BMW has more SUVs than Lexus ironically. They are sportier to drive.


Overall its funny b/c all these years people bashed Lexus (and love beating the crap out of the GS) for being tuned for more luxury than sport. Here is the 5 that is seemingly tuned that way and its okay b/c "that is what people want". People on the internet didn't use that pass before lol. Which is why you got to realize most of the people that post crap are doing just thank posting crap with no actual experience in the cars and let their natural biases dictate their fingers. If people remember the 2GS and E39 were seen as pretty close as well with the 5 winning (and rightfully so) for better steering and a slightly more confident feel . The 3GS and E60 were miles apart in driving ability in regards to sport. Now the script has flipped with the 4GS and F10 but NO ONE KNOWS or CARES.

Personally I think the 5 series is the best overall car maybe today. You cannot deny the extra size, the seats that drop for more trunk room, the vast engine options, etc. I think it looks fantastic even if predictable. But if you want the BEST DRIVING CAR in class, I do feel the GS is the car to beat. I've driven the 5 multiple times with different engine options including on a short road course and there is no getting around the added weight and mass. It drives big the E60 drove small. It is not a BAD THING, that is what has worked for Lexus for years, it just might be surprising its a BMW.

Joeb427

iTrader: (1)

My view of the GS and 5 Series.I drove both.I believe the handling of both is close enough that most wouldn't feel any difference.The 5 Series is soooo much nicer exterior wise.The GS is soooo much nicer interior wise.
It comes down to the badge.The BMW is still more prestigious than Lexus.People buy the badge.I believe the 5 Series and E Class will sell a lot more than the GS for many years to come.

stlgrym3

iTrader: (4)

as of now i would pick pick the 535i m sport personally if i'm buying one. the carried-over powertrain of the GS350 is really giving me pause.

dunderhi

Wow, 67k posts! (I'm not quite there yet.) Anyway, that's truly a feat on any board.

I agree with pretty much everything you have said, I guess there's value to be placed in experience. In fact it was Lexus' advertisement with AMCI that got to me to look at a Lexus for the first time ever a couple of days ago. Eventhough I was disappointed with how the test data was originated, it was effective advertisement after all, since I am here.

As a German car guy (owned BMW, Audi, MB), I don't see Lexus doing anything to court me like Germans have done. Am I wrong? I have done 3 Europeans Deliveries with BMW(335d, 550xi, 650xi) and one with Mercedes(SL550), so at this point a generic US Stateside delivery feels like a major let down. I know Lexus can't deliever cars to customers in Germany and even Japan is a bit impractical due to the LHD/RHD issue, but BMW and Mercedes both offer "experiences" at their factories in the US even for the German made models. If it wasn't for a timing issue, I would have done a BMW Performance Center Delivery for our X5M to see how the beast feels on the track prior to taking on the road.

Anyway, I'm not sure who has been representing BMW around here, but many traditional BMW owners care about BMW's shift towards the center. Performance still matters. There have been plenty of E60 vs F10 discussions. The current thinking is the new larger 3 Series is now the 5 Series for the BMW traditionalists and the F10 is a smaller 7 Series. When I bought my 550xi, I knew I could undo most of BMW's move to the middle with some mods and with 511hp, tighter springs, forged wheels and max performance tires it was a driver's car again, albeit a heavy driver's car. The non-traditional BMW buyers are embracing the move to the center, but I'm not sure which population is larger, but the F10 sales numbers are higher than the E60. In 2013, BMW is finally offering stiffer springs to replace the pogo-sticks on the MSports, which addresses my number two complaint on the F10. The RFTs are my number one complaint.

Now if Lexus has now come of age in the sporty car segments, then that's great! I've looked at Infiniti in the past, but never thought Lexus had anything to offer. So, when the next Lexuc SC is released, I may gave it a look. Unfortunately, I said "may" instead of "will", due to the lack of an ED-like experience. I just hope the MB SLS will still be in production for my next go around.

bagwell

I love it! so now BMW doesn't handle as good as competitors, has shti reliability....oh, but it does have the badge, so all is well!!!!

bigblack06

iTrader: (20)

Best answer to this thread! The BMW is a pretty good looking car, and I do think BMW is trying to go more comfort, I noticed it in my mothers 2011 X3 its softer than my X5. Lexus has come a long way and with the new CEO he has helped Lexus become more of a sportier car. BMW makes fun cars but now Lexus does as well. Just to correct, BMW uses SAV because they call it a Sports Activity Vehicle.

Blackraven

^^^This

Mike, I'd have to say that this is one of the most balanced viewpoints and opinion pieces that you've ever given.

Nice one sir =)

Anyways, personal opinion:

I would pick a GS350 F-sport over say any regular 5 series without a doubt (no brainer). Where I'm from (Philippines), the cost to buy a GS350 F-sport only gets you a 520d here. For same amount of money, the Lexus gives you more 'car' than a similar-priced BMW 5er here.

So yeah, I would choose a GS350 F-sport over ANY regular 5 series

EXCEPT

Maybe (just maybe) if that regular 5 series were a station wagon version of the M550d XDrive AWD.









*Damn, I never knew that the touring/estate version of the 5 series would look that nice*

Anyways, if I had to choose between what would I buy first between say an M5 or a Lexus GS350 F-sport, I'd have to say that:
M5 > GS350 F-sport

Given the kind of driving conditions in the Philippines, I'd figured I'd be happier in the M5. Also, most of my driving is city and outside of that, they're mostly highways with a relative low speed limit. Hence, if acceleration is the key factor, then the M5 would obviously be better for me.

Cost would not be a factor for me in this vehicle segment (i.e. if you want a premium vehicle in this country, you gotta pay to play so money MUST NOT be an object of concern).

Granted, the GS350 F-sport would've been the first choice if I do trackwork with lots of sharp turns and bends or mountain drifting where the lighter weight and dynamics of the GS350 F-sport would prevail against the M5.

However, in my case, that's not what I do.

So yeah, M5 > GS350 F-sport for me

Just my opinion =)

KevinGS

Great post, Mike! And for what it's worth, your 2 cents are worth $2 mill at least.

Actually, a lot of us care, we enthusiasts do.

But Lexus' cash cow (the over 50 crowd), they don't care. And that's the issue. They just want luxury, reliability and prestige. Those that are buying and leasing new GS' and LS' are often a different crowd than us driving enthusiasts. So that presents a conundrum of sorts for Lexus.

Well said.

The 4GS outshines the new 5 for sure in handling and suspension compliance. The new 4GS drives small, the new 5 feels like a boat in comparison. And I bet the new M5 feels like a highly capable, really fast boat.....which is great if you just want speed and superior handling. But I bet you don't feel all that connected to the action, like in the 4GS.

The thing is that the older crowd wants to be disconnected from all the action. So, the new 5 was made for them, the new 4GS was made for us. Years past, this was flipped.

Going to be an interesting decade for sure as the companies battle it out. I'm just glad to be alive during this era....what a great time to love cars. The Audi S8's capabilities and compliance still blows me away!

And Mercedes still sells a ton of E-class and S-class around the globe and in America...simply because that emblem is symbolic for success and nobility.