View Poll Results: Do you miss the "old" Lexus ways?
Voters: 57. You may not vote on this poll
Your thoughts on Lexus's new direction?
03-19-13, 09:31 AM
#46
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No offense, Mike, but that 's the problem....the suspension and tires are too solid. It has lost the classic ES ride.
I agree, though, that, aside from that (and some minor interior cost-cutting), the new ES is still a good entry-level luxury car, and I would probably buy it before some rivals....especially the harsh-riding Infiniti sedans, which are even worse over bumps. If it were a choice between the ES and the Buick Lacrosse, I would be hard-pressed between the two, even though the Lacrosse has a better ride/handling combo (one of the best of any American nameplate). The ES, though, would probably be more reliable in the long run.
I agree, though, that, aside from that (and some minor interior cost-cutting), the new ES is still a good entry-level luxury car, and I would probably buy it before some rivals....especially the harsh-riding Infiniti sedans, which are even worse over bumps. If it were a choice between the ES and the Buick Lacrosse, I would be hard-pressed between the two, even though the Lacrosse has a better ride/handling combo (one of the best of any American nameplate). The ES, though, would probably be more reliable in the long run.
The ES is substantially better built, offers far more technology than the Buick and offers a 40MPG hybrid to boot. Not even a close call to me and I like the LaCrosse.
03-19-13, 09:43 AM
#47
Lexus Fanatic
Also seems to be a problem for Consumer Reports, one of the most widely-read auto publications, though I admit I don't always agree with them.
http://www.consumerreports.org/cro/lexus/es.htm
I'll agree the ES is a little more solidly-built then the Lacrosse, but the Lacrosse, despite its superb chassis-tuning, does not, IMO, represent the best Buick is doing today. The Regal, Verano, and, to an extent, Encore, all based on foreign-platforms, exhibit more solidness in their sheet metal and hardware. The LaCrosse is essentially a great chassis overladen by much of the same old (if glitzy) GM cheap plastic inside.
I'll also forgive a vehicle sometimes, even if it doesn't ride exactly to my tastes. For instance, I would have much prefered the Verano with 55/60/65-series tires instead of 45's, but the car impressed me in so many other ways that I bought it anyway. And, for several reasons, I don't go for aftermarket tire/wheel conversions....it can be risky.
http://www.consumerreports.org/cro/lexus/es.htm
Originally Posted by Consumer Reports
In the process of redesigning the ES, Lexus hurt the ride comfort and made the controls complex. Our ES350 with the powerful 3.5-liter V6 and six-speed automatic got a good 25 mpg overall, while our tested ES300h hybrid got 36 mpg overall and 44 mpg on the highway. The ride is decent but not as plush as before; it is worse with the optional 18-inch wheels. Handling is sound but unexceptional. Inside, the very quiet cabin looks good at first blush, but there is evidence of cheap touches and cost cutting throughout. The driver-interaction system is distracting and convoluted; if you skip the navigation system you get simpler controls. A Toyota Camry provides much of the same for less money. Reliability is likely to be above-average.
The ES is substantially better built, offers far more technology than the Buick and offers a 40MPG hybrid to boot. Not even a close call to me and I like the LaCrosse.
I'll also forgive a vehicle sometimes, even if it doesn't ride exactly to my tastes. For instance, I would have much prefered the Verano with 55/60/65-series tires instead of 45's, but the car impressed me in so many other ways that I bought it anyway. And, for several reasons, I don't go for aftermarket tire/wheel conversions....it can be risky.
Last edited by mmarshall; 03-19-13 at 09:50 AM.
03-19-13, 09:57 AM
#48
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Also seems to be a problem for Consumer Reports, one of the most widely-read auto publications, though I admit I don't always agree with them.
http://www.consumerreports.org/cro/lexus/es.htm
I'll agree the ES is a little more solidly-built then the Lacrosse, but the Lacrosse, despite its superb chassis-tuning, does not, IMO, represent the best Buick is doing today. The Regal, Verano, and, to an extent, Encore, all based on foreign-platforms, exhibit more solidness in their sheet metal and hardware. The LaCrosse is essentially a great chassis overladen by much of the same old (if glitzy) GM cheap plastic inside.
I'll also forgive a vehicle sometimes, even if it doesn't ride exactly to my tastes. For instance, I would have much prefered the Verano with 55/60/65-series tires instead of 45's, but the car impressed me in so many other ways that I bought it anyway. And, for several reasons, I don't go for aftermarket tire/wheel conversions....it can be risky.
http://www.consumerreports.org/cro/lexus/es.htm
I'll agree the ES is a little more solidly-built then the Lacrosse, but the Lacrosse, despite its superb chassis-tuning, does not, IMO, represent the best Buick is doing today. The Regal, Verano, and, to an extent, Encore, all based on foreign-platforms, exhibit more solidness in their sheet metal and hardware. The LaCrosse is essentially a great chassis overladen by much of the same old (if glitzy) GM cheap plastic inside.
I'll also forgive a vehicle sometimes, even if it doesn't ride exactly to my tastes. For instance, I would have much prefered the Verano with 55/60/65-series tires instead of 45's, but the car impressed me in so many other ways that I bought it anyway. And, for several reasons, I don't go for aftermarket tire/wheel conversions....it can be risky.
And again the MARKET has spoken, the ES then, according to CR, drives "harsh" yet they are flying off dealer lots. Seems people like "harsh"
03-19-13, 10:05 AM
#49
Lexus Fanatic
Originally Posted by Blueprint
A 2008 IS F is harsh
The ES simply does not drive like floatier past versions. To my tastes, it is a far better drive especially in sport mode.
03-19-13, 12:50 PM
#50
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Last 2 years almost nobody bought Avalon built for old people... new one is selling like crazy.
Those don't look like terrible numbers to me. I'm no sales expert, just wondering what number you pegged the Avalon sales to be at.
And do you have the numbers for the 2013 model? To date, I have seen about 5 in the wild, which is pretty good
thing is, younger population likes better handling and hence all of the cars are getting firmer... and then they end up selling better
And again the MARKET has spoken, the ES then, according to CR, drives "harsh" yet they are flying off dealer lots. Seems people like "harsh"
For that reason, Lexus enjoys good sales from the ES.
Same thing with the wonderboy star of the American sedans: Mr. Camry himself. That car sells like a beast, because it IS the standard car. When people say the word car, that is the vehicle that will come to mind.
Last edited by trexlexus; 03-19-13 at 12:59 PM.
03-19-13, 02:02 PM
#52
Moderator: LFA, Clubhouse
Gengar, I'm not ignoring the fact that the F sport is but 1 piece of the LS puzzle. I fully understand it will most likely be a small piece in this segment of cars.
That is not the point I am trying to bring up. I am talking about the fact that the LS is no longer FOCUSED, in my opinion, on providing sole comfort/luxury. The 2013s may be the most comfortable models yet (I will admit I do not know, as I have never driven ANY LS. No shame in admitting ignorance). But it seems to me that when someone splits development time into both sport (F sport package) and providing refinement (the rest of the lineup), neither can fully achieve greatness.
Let's say I want to become a master at painting or cooking. If I spend time working on both skills I might be great at them both, but can I really be the tops in either? Time spent on 1 is time wasted on the other. See where I am going?
That is not the point I am trying to bring up. I am talking about the fact that the LS is no longer FOCUSED, in my opinion, on providing sole comfort/luxury. The 2013s may be the most comfortable models yet (I will admit I do not know, as I have never driven ANY LS. No shame in admitting ignorance). But it seems to me that when someone splits development time into both sport (F sport package) and providing refinement (the rest of the lineup), neither can fully achieve greatness.
Let's say I want to become a master at painting or cooking. If I spend time working on both skills I might be great at them both, but can I really be the tops in either? Time spent on 1 is time wasted on the other. See where I am going?
You admit you haven't even driven an LS. At a minimum I would think you would have to do so before declaring that the F-Sport has changed the LS and that Lexus is headed off in some "new direction". Honestly, go test drive even just the vanilla LS460 and see for yourself. Savor the isolation and enjoy the experience. Even better, drive a 1st, 2nd, or even 3rd-gen LS to compare and experience the difference. I think you'll quickly change your mind about whatever "new direction" you are currently perceiving.
03-19-13, 02:19 PM
#53
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I understand what you are saying, but i do not think that you get what i am trying to post. I am partly to blame because what I am talking about is not easily communicated (or i just dont know how to say it). One of those "you just had to be there" type of deals.
I realize that every generation of LS is an improvement in SOME way over the last. I realize that the latest one inludes an F sport and it is only a pakage. However, I was saying that having a sporty pakcage in this class of car seems off setting to me. I know BMW has the M sport, I don't really like it either. To me, Lexus had the defining traits of being soft, plushy, and comfortable. Those were unique to the brand. Some criticized it, others loved it. The success of the ES is a testament to that.
Yes, the move of cars nowadays is to pump testosterone, but I had hoped Lexus would not follow suit. I know that is what will keep the brand competitive, but I just don't like. That it is all.
Would you agree with me that on average, all Lexus models have gotten some type of sporty pretensions that were not there 5-10 years ago? I know blueprint already agrees. The fact that Lexus has geared away from being stereotypically "boring to drive" has left me a little nostalgic. I miss those days, because I fear I might not be ever able to experience that pillowy ride. THAT is the direction I am talking about. Almost the entire industry is doing it.
To date, I have not driven any Lexus, nor have I owned one. I am most likely a lot younger than you imagine. When i first got interested in cars, Lexus grabbed me because they were the combo of luxuriousness/soft/reliable. Sure those, traits may still persist in the current models, but gathering from what I read, some of them have been diminished. When I actually have the means to buy this brand, my worry is the "original" traits i saw in Lexus will be reduced to a great extent. THAT is my worry.
I realize that every generation of LS is an improvement in SOME way over the last. I realize that the latest one inludes an F sport and it is only a pakage. However, I was saying that having a sporty pakcage in this class of car seems off setting to me. I know BMW has the M sport, I don't really like it either. To me, Lexus had the defining traits of being soft, plushy, and comfortable. Those were unique to the brand. Some criticized it, others loved it. The success of the ES is a testament to that.
Yes, the move of cars nowadays is to pump testosterone, but I had hoped Lexus would not follow suit. I know that is what will keep the brand competitive, but I just don't like. That it is all.
Would you agree with me that on average, all Lexus models have gotten some type of sporty pretensions that were not there 5-10 years ago? I know blueprint already agrees. The fact that Lexus has geared away from being stereotypically "boring to drive" has left me a little nostalgic. I miss those days, because I fear I might not be ever able to experience that pillowy ride. THAT is the direction I am talking about. Almost the entire industry is doing it.
To date, I have not driven any Lexus, nor have I owned one. I am most likely a lot younger than you imagine. When i first got interested in cars, Lexus grabbed me because they were the combo of luxuriousness/soft/reliable. Sure those, traits may still persist in the current models, but gathering from what I read, some of them have been diminished. When I actually have the means to buy this brand, my worry is the "original" traits i saw in Lexus will be reduced to a great extent. THAT is my worry.
03-19-13, 02:19 PM
#54
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But it's not zero-sum. The fact that an F-Sport exists doesn't mean that every other model is worse. That's the beauty of economic freedom and choice: it results in growth. Saying that the F-Sport takes away from other LS models is like saying that because Lexus made/sold X more LS models than last year, none of them can be as good. That just isn't the case. If the market demands more cars or more options, Lexus can hire more engineers and designers and workers, and /or build more machines so they can add these options and up production.
You admit you haven't even driven an LS. At a minimum I would think you would have to do so before declaring that the F-Sport has changed the LS and that Lexus is headed off in some "new direction". Honestly, go test drive even just the vanilla LS460 and see for yourself. Savor the isolation and enjoy the experience. Even better, drive a 1st, 2nd, or even 3rd-gen LS to compare and experience the difference. I think you'll quickly change your mind about whatever "new direction" you are currently perceiving.
You admit you haven't even driven an LS. At a minimum I would think you would have to do so before declaring that the F-Sport has changed the LS and that Lexus is headed off in some "new direction". Honestly, go test drive even just the vanilla LS460 and see for yourself. Savor the isolation and enjoy the experience. Even better, drive a 1st, 2nd, or even 3rd-gen LS to compare and experience the difference. I think you'll quickly change your mind about whatever "new direction" you are currently perceiving.
03-20-13, 03:16 AM
#56
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I totally agree. The old Lexus's still have their luxury, floaty appeal, but a lot of Lexus enthusiast then and now always modded their Lexus' to be more on the sporty side. So this new Lexus direction in my opinion is what most of us has been waiting for. BMW, Mercedes and Audi have always banked on their sporty roots and I have always thought Lexus has the capabilities and resources to better their German competitors. Now is Lexus' time to shine in the genre that has made those German companies on the top of the list for many buyers around the world. ISF, GSF, LSF, maybe a RXF, and here's to hoping perhaps an SCF(if Lexus revives the SC).
03-20-13, 06:19 AM
#58
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03-31-13, 10:22 PM
#60
I totally agree. The old Lexus's still have their luxury, floaty appeal, but a lot of Lexus enthusiast then and now always modded their Lexus' to be more on the sporty side. So this new Lexus direction in my opinion is what most of us has been waiting for. BMW, Mercedes and Audi have always banked on their sporty roots and I have always thought Lexus has the capabilities and resources to better their German competitors. Now is Lexus' time to shine in the genre that has made those German companies on the top of the list for many buyers around the world. ISF, GSF, LSF, maybe a RXF, and here's to hoping perhaps an SCF(if Lexus revives the SC).
Lexus GS
After winning the last six-cylinder midsize luxury sedan comparison, the Lexus GS is the bogey to beat. Can the 2014 CTS topple the tantalizingly fun GS 350 from its throne?
After winning the last six-cylinder midsize luxury sedan comparison, the Lexus GS is the bogey to beat. Can the 2014 CTS topple the tantalizingly fun GS 350 from its throne?
. Just watch, no one without a German badge will get a pass. Even when the Americans and Asians do it right, the Euro's still win, go figure . Hate the masses hah